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Thread: Proposed - The New South Street Seaport - by SHoP Architects

  1. #106


    so much for "light and airy"

    should be white or something.

  2. #107
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    NYC - Downtown


    Quote Originally Posted by brianac View Post

    ... The tower will be 70 feet wide — “Nobody should confuse this with a Trump,”

    says architect Gregg Pasquarelli of SHoP Architects ...
    The tower appears to be a rectangle, the longer side seemingly ~ twice the length of the shorter ...

    So that 70' measurement mentioned by architect Pasquarelli is along which side?

  3. #108


    Has anyone been down there to have a look at the model?

  4. #109


    Quote Originally Posted by philvia View Post
    so much for "light and airy"

    should be white or something.

  5. #110
    Build the Tower Verre antinimby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    in Limbo


    Seaport firm talks tower, school and greenmarket

    By Julie Shapiro
    Sept. 12 -18, 2008

    General Growth Properties may combine a school with a community center in the redevelopment of Pier 17.

    G.G.P. has already offered the community a 30,000-square-foot community center in the building where the “Bodies” exhibit sits and is examining population projections to decide if a new school is necessary.

    On Tuesday, Michael McNaughton, a vice president at G.G.P., floated the idea of combining the two community amenities in a space that would be a school during the day and a community center at night. But he quickly added that was only one option and he recognized the need for a 24/7 community center. He said that keeping the amenities separate was also possible.

    McNaughton spoke to two reporters after a meeting of Community Board 1’s Seaport Committee, where board members discussed General Growth’s proposed development but did not ask much about the school. General Growth wants to build a 495-foot condo and hotel tower just north of the pier, move the landmarked Tin Building to Pier 17’s tip and build lower-rise retail and a boutique hotel on the pier.

    General Growth is planning to expand the greenmarket in the Fulton Market building. The market, one of the uses desired by many residents, opened briefly earlier this summer and is scheduled to reopen with more stalls soon. McNaughton said the community should support the produce vendors to show General Growth that the market is a good idea.

    “If this thing flops, it’ll be Yankee T-shirts and bonsai trees,” McNaughton said after the meeting.

    Earlier, when board members asked about news reports questioning General Growth’s finances, McNaughton said the firm’s ability to build it is so certain that it is a moot point. He later said G.G.P. has shuttered other retail projects around the country because the markets in those towns “experienced tremendous slowdowns.” He said General Growth would not build the Seaport project without having some tenants in place.

    McNaughton spent much of the Seaport Committee meeting defending the project to several skeptical committee members, who were particularly concerned about the height of the tower. The tower will not block views of the Brooklyn Bridge from 117 Beekman St., St. Margaret’s House or Southbridge Towers, but those buildings will lose a slice of their view of the waterfront and Brooklyn.

    When the committee members asked McNaughton to shrink the tower without making it any wider, McNaughton said a change like that would come with a tradeoff.

    “If the project gets smaller, my wallet gets smaller,” he said, meaning that General Growth would have fewer community amenities to offer.

    McNaughton will have plenty more chances to debate these points with the community, as he estimates that the project is six to seven years away from opening.

    General Growth’s next presentation to C.B. 1 will be at the Landmarks Committee on Sept. 17. G.G.P. needs Landmarks approval to demolish the Pier 17 mall, move the Tin Building and erect new structures on Pier 17.

    The project will go to the city’s Landmarks Preservation Commission in October.

    © 2008 Community Media, LLC

  6. #111


    Changes Sought in Plans For South Street Seaport

    By PETER KIEFER, Staff Reporter of the Sun | September 15, 2008

    Plans by the developer General Growth Properties to transform the South Street Seaport into a mixed-use retail, residential, and hotel destination are being targeted today by area residents and the local City Council member, Alan Gerson.

    "I guess, fundamentally, we want to get a sense of how flexible they are in working with us to make changes to better enhance the historic character of the seaport. And come up with a more financially viable model," Mr. Gerson said in an interview.

    Mr. Gerson — who said he will not support the plan in its current form — is holding a hearing today on General Growth Properties's plans to replace the James Rouse-built Pier 17 marketplace pavilion, as well as two Fulton Fish Market structures between Fulton and Beekman streets, with a mixed-use complex that would include a 42-story hotel and apartment tower.

    "My concern is that the plan does not accentuate or enhance the unique flavor and historic character of the seaport. Specifically, I have problems with the height of the tower, and the lack of sufficient public space."
    General Growth has been trying to court public opinion for the project by sponsoring a free exhibit, "Seaport Past & Future," at a building on Front Street.

    General Growth will be seeking approval from the Landmarks Preservation Commission this fall before entering into the city's land use review process.

    The developer's plan does include a community center and it has said it would consider offering to build a school as a cultural amenity to help win support.

    "General Growth Properties looks forward to sharing its vision with the community," a spokesman for the company said.

  7. #112



    09/16/2008 11:18 AM

    City Discusses Future Of South Street Seaport

    The City Council held a hearing Monday to discuss plans to make South Street Seaport a more appealing destination for tourists and New Yorkers alike. NY1's Rebecca Spitz filed the following report.

    What if there was a GreenMarket where the Fulton Fish Market used to be? What about a hotel and new apartments where Pier 17 is?
    Those are some of the highlights of a major redevelopment plan in the works to revitalize South Street Seaport.

    "Unless it's built, merchandised, and activated in a way that makes it compelling for them, there are plenty of other choices in New York for the residents to congregate, eat, and recreate," said Michael McNaughton of General Growth Properties, a group that presented its designs to the City Council.

    The complex of restaurants and mall-like shops at the seaport has always attracted more tourists than locals.

    General Growth Properties presented its vision for a new seaport to a City Council committee Monday.

    First released in June, the plan calls for more than two acres of open space, besides new shops and restaurants. Its signature building would house retail, as well as a hotel and residential units. But the main building would tower 42 stories above the East River, a fact community activists will not willingly accept.

    "We have concerns, certainly about the height of the building," said Community Board 1 Chair Julie Menin. "We engaged in a battle a number of years ago to try to keep the seaport low-rise, and we really want to make sure whatever is built is contextual."

    "We tried dozens and dozens of configurations, and in fact, even though it's a little counterintuitive, the taller we made the building, the more slender it became, and therefore the fewer views it blocked," explained Greg Pascarelli of SHoP Architects.

    And for any number of reasons, this is a project the city is squarely behind.

    "By expanding retail opportunities and creating new hotel rooms and housing units, it's estimated that the project will create 5,750 construction jobs and more than 2,000 permanent jobs over the next decade, while also generating over one-billion dollars in total economic output over the next 20 years," said Seth Pinsky of the city's Economic Development Corporation.

    So do New Yorkers who either live or work in this area think it's time for a change?

    "I don't think they have enough community activities down here, so it doesn't invite the people who live here to come down more frequently," said one local resident.

    "I think it's outdated and it needs to be modernized a little bit," said another.

    "Ro tell you the truth, I like it the way it is," said a third.

    The proposal has to go through a number of reviews, but developers are optimistic that they can have shovels in the ground by 2010.

  8. #113


    Seaport Developer General Growth Looking for Billions

    by Eliot Brown
    October 20, 2008

    Eliot Brown.
    General Growth VP Michael McNaughton with the South Street redo model back in July.

    The Journal has an interesting story today about REIT General Growth Properties, which wants to redevelop South Street Seaport, and its scramble to come up with a few billion dollars as it refinances debt. Its stock price has tanked recently, from $21 a share a month ago to under $6 today, as investors worry about the company's ability to refinance.

    From the article:
    Mall owner General Growth Properties Inc. is canvassing private-equity firms, hedge funds and other investors in a bid to sell $1.5 billion to $2 billion in preferred shares as it races to refinance or pay off billions of dollars in debt due in the coming months.
    The company's bankers at Goldman Sachs Group Inc. have in recent weeks made the rounds of potential investors including Blackstone Group LP, Colony Capital LLC and Vornado Realty Trust, according to people familiar with the situation. The effort is led by Byron Trott, the Goldman banker who recently brokered similar sales of preferred shares for Goldman and General Electric Co. to Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Inc., these people say.

    © 2008 Observer Media Group,

  9. #114



    Seaport Fight Goes to Landmarks Commission.
    Monday, October 20, 2008, by Robert

    FiDi—The South Street Seaport redevelopment fight enters a new phase tomorrow with a hearing before the Landmarks Preservation Commission. It will be preceded by the kind of fun we would expect from such a session: a press conference by the Municipal Art Society denouncing the General Growth and SHoP Archtitects plan. Per a release, "MAS President Kent Barwick will state that the entire concept of the General Growth Properties project is flawed and misguided, and that it should be entirely re-conceptualized. Specifically, MAS will state that "the project overwhelms the historic buildings of the district, further severs the Seaport from its history and destroys the sanctity of views from and of the Brooklyn Bridge." The presser is at two at the Municipal Building, but no one is saying anything about the fact that General Growth may go bankrupt and render it all an empty discourse. [CurbedWire]

    Copyright © 2008 Curbed

  10. #115


    I bet $5 to anyone that this project never happens..not even in a revised form.

  11. #116

    Arrow New Seaport: "looks kinda cool"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sherpa View Post
    I bet $5 to anyone that this project never happens..
    After reading through this thread: I tend to agree with your call on this project - particularly after seeing the WSJ article about the possibility of developer 'General Growth' going bankrupt.


    Link to Article -
    Last edited by infoshare; October 20th, 2008 at 11:29 PM.

  12. #117

  13. #118


    ^ General Growth? General Shrinkage.

  14. #119


    October 21, 2008, 1:43 pm

    Moving the Old Fulton Fish Market’s Building

    By Jennifer 8. Lee

    A developer has proposed moving the former home of the Fulton Fish Market to the end of the pier, to make room for a new complex. (Photo: SHoP Architects)

    Updated, 3:45 p.m. |

    No matter what one thinks of South Street Seaport’s future design, most agree its past deserves respect. Developers and preservationists are now wrangling over a question: Can the past be preserved by moving it?

    The proposed relocation of Alexander Hamilton’s 206-year-old home in Harlem was considered successful. But the proposed relocation of the historic home of the Fulton Fish Market, to make way for a new complex at the seaport that includes a 42-story tower, have drawn protests from preservationists.
    It’s a critical debate that lands in front of the Landmarks Preservation Commission around 3 p.m. today.

    If the commission does not sign off on the relocation, much of the proposed redesign by General Growth Properties will be hampered (although not the plans for the 42-story building, which is planned for just outside the historic district).

    The Tin Building, which was originally built in 1907, was long the home to the bustling Fulton Fish Market, which had come into existence in the 19th century.
    But the building has sat as an unused shell since the fishmongers departed for Hunts Point (and more modern facilities) in the Bronx in 2005 (though much of the history in its old home had been well-documented).

    Designed by the Berlin Construction Company, the Tin Building was given its name in part because of its orange-painted aluminum siding on the three floors above the concrete ground floor, where the wholesalers received their supplies and sold their wares.

    The building was originally placed between two piers, so that the wholesale fish could be delivered by boat. But once fish arrived by truck, the space between the two piers was filled in and the Pier 17 mall was plopped onto that land. Now the developers want to raze the mall and move the Tin Building to the end of that pier, to make room for other buildings.

    The Historic Districts Council argues that buildings within historic districts gain their meaning through their relationship with other structures, and, “Putting the Tin Building alone on the edge of a pier is not putting it into context.”

    The developers argue otherwise: that in fact, putting it on the pier puts it more into context. They argue it was originally built on the water, but in the last century it has been hemmed in by the Franklin D. Roosevelt Drive viaduct to the west and the Pier 17 shopping mall to the east, among other structures.

    “There are buildings on four sides of it, whereas it sat historically as a waterfront building with a large plaza in front of it,” said Gregg Pasquarelli, a partner at SHoP Architects, which is handling the redesign for the entire South Street Seaport. “Its context is gone, and the understanding of this building as a waterfront building has been gone for three decades.” He argued that it had other benefits, too, such as clearing the way for an esplanade along the water, like the one that runs long the Hudson River.

    “What we are doing is we are moving it to reinstate its position as a waterfront building,” Mr. Pasquarelli said, “giving it views in all four directions, allowing it to be seen in all four directions for the first time in four decades, and placing a large open public space in front of it, just like they day it opened in 1907.”

    But preservationists oppose much of the plan in general (especially the 42-story building), and have been focusing their dissatisfaction on the Tin Building. “It has been historically a waterfront building, but it wasn’t stuck out at the end of the pier,” said Simeon Bankoff, executive director of Historic Districts Council. “We feel like it separates the historic building from its environment.”

    The building would most likely be revived into a use related to food — perhaps a banquet hall, restaurants or markets — said Michael McNaughton, a vice president for General Growth Properties, a real estate company which has had some financial struggles of late. The food theme is a nod to the Tin Building’s historic past, he said. “It has been feeding New Yorkers for decades.” (We think this is a bit of a logical stretch.)

    The Tin Building, while situated in a historic district, is not itself historic. And it suffered great damage when a suspicious fire swept through it in 1995, disrupting the lives of 400 employees and uprooting seven major wholesale vendors who sell $350 million in seafood every year. The fire came on the heels of several attempts by government to purge the fish market, because for decades, the Tin Building had served as a shadowy world for Mafia gangsters who thrived on extortion, fraud, no-show jobs, loan sharking, money laundering and gambling rackets, investigators said. It was rebuilt shortly thereafter, but with fiberglass cornices instead of metal ones. So for all the fuss, it turns out that very little of the Tin Building today is actually original.

    Copyright 2008 The New York Times Company
    Last edited by brianac; October 21st, 2008 at 07:19 PM.

  15. #120


    The tin building...
    Never will anybody be able to rid it of "that" smell....
    put it at the end of the pier.

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