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Thread: California -- High Speed Trains

  1. #31

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    The official estimated completion time for the entire line is 2028-2033. Assuming the usual delays and budget shortfalls that go with things like this you could realistically be looking at completion around 2040. I'd argue the fate of this train will be similar to that of either the ARC Tunnel (Cancelled), or the 2nd avenue subway (eternal construction site).

  2. #32

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    Are you looking at this only as a product - like going to the store and buying a train?

    Or is it more than that?

  3. #33

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    Well the ARC never got going, and after screwing around for the better part of a century, 2nd Ave IS happening (I've been walking through the hugely active construction site for the last couple of days.)

    If Cali is going to be serious about this, they need to say where they're going to come up with the money, given the fact that they're near insolvency in the current financial state.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundam00 View Post
    The official estimated completion time for the entire line is 2028-2033. Assuming the usual delays and budget shortfalls that go with things like this you could realistically be looking at completion around 2040. I'd argue the fate of this train will be similar to that of either the ARC Tunnel (Cancelled), or the 2nd avenue subway (eternal construction site).

  4. #34

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    Much of the time, we'd be much better off if people who are looking to suck off the public nipple were told no. The "no" card should be played much more than it actually is.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Echoes of the Party of No.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
    Much of the time, we'd be much better off if people who are looking to suck off the public nipple were told no. The "no" card should be played much more than it actually is.
    So modernizing the country's infrastructure is merely "sucking off the public nipple."

    All of the things that were built during the last big Depression, when the country was broke, were just a waste of time, a rip-off of the public.

    Narrow thinking typical of the Party of No.

  6. #36
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    ^ Agree.

  7. #37
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Other things the citizens of the Republic should have said "No" to (lest the public nipple get worn to a ragged nub):

    1) Louisiana Purchase

    2) Erie Canal

    3) Transcontinental Railroad

    4) Tennessee Valley Authority

    5) Manhattan Project

    6) Interstate Highway System

    7) Anything to do with NASA

    Ultimately wouldn't we be better off today if we hadn't spent the non-existent cash that those projects required?

  8. #38
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    8) Alaska Purchase

  9. #39
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Meh.

    The problem here is simple.

    What use is a high speed train going to be if the location and stops are decided by the general public? I read that the current planned route has so many weird stops and transfer requirements at its main destinations, that many would not want to use the service because of the inconvenience.

    I would like to see a high speed rail from SF to LA, but not if it has to stop 8 times along the way and drop you off 45 minutes from either....

  10. #40

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    So they should go ahead and build something that will likely go well over it's expected budget, and when complete require ongoing subsidies or be unaffordable to it's potential users. all at a time when the state in question is basically insolvent. Seems pretty stupid.

    If there was any hope that this thing would be self support to the point of being able to pay off the bonds used to build it, I could get behind it. Does anyone think there's any possibility of that happening. I haven't seen it any other countries HSR systems. They all tend to be patronage boondoggles, as this one will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    So modernizing the country's infrastructure is merely "sucking off the public nipple."

    All of the things that were built during the last big Depression, when the country was broke, were just a waste of time, a rip-off of the public.

    Narrow thinking typical of the Party of No.

  11. #41

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    It's strange how you're quick to criticize anything that you perceive (politically?) to be ripping off the public, yet you are silent about the companies in this thread and others. Do you think these people have been "sucking off the public nipple?"


    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
    So they should go ahead and build something that will likely go well over it's expected budget, and when complete require ongoing subsidies or be unaffordable to it's potential users.
    Show me how any transportation system is really self-supporting.

    By your thinking, mass transit in NYC is a failure, because it isn't profitable. But would the city be profitable without it?

    Let's not build anything unless it can operate as a business. Except the financial sector of course. When it fails, business rules no longer apply, and it can be subsidized.

    Still more narrow thinking from the Party of No.

  12. #42
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    The question would be this:

    How much money would need to be spent if a large portion of the workers on this project had to get welfare or other assistance?

    I do not believe it is here, but aren't many people asking for programs to get people who are ON Welfare to "do something" for the money?

    While I agree that it is NOT efficient, and there will be several areas where money is most definitely wasted, I also see where this is not a 100% loss. So long as we actually HIRE AMERICAN COMPANIES to do this, and do it CORRECTLY, this could be a better way to create a "stimulus" than a few hundred dollar "tax break".

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
    Meh.

    The problem here is simple.

    What use is a high speed train going to be if the location and stops are decided by the general public? I read that the current planned route has so many weird stops and transfer requirements at its main destinations, that many would not want to use the service because of the inconvenience.

    I would like to see a high speed rail from SF to LA, but not if it has to stop 8 times along the way and drop you off 45 minutes from either....

    The issue with your conclusion is that it is constructed from a false premise: there are no significant issues whatsoever with regards to transfers to other local, regional or long distance transportation systems. The authority's high speed plans detail a substantial effort to create and emphasize transfers and connections to the system upon completion, as well as wherever they can before that time. During construction there will perhaps be some interesting connections necessitated, but if one expects a flawless transition to full build-out for a mammoth infrastructure project, not only are they wrongheaded, they are boneheaded indeed.

  14. #44

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    You do realize that the subways were originally built by private companies who expected to make a profit on it, the Interborough Rapit Transit Company, and Brooklyn - Manhattan Transit Company (IRT and BMT). The city then decided it wanted to take them over, and build third system, the Indepent Rapid Transit (IND) as subsidized competition to put them out of business.

    So originally they were self supporting until the gov't screwed with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    It's strange how you're quick to criticize anything that you perceive (politically?) to be ripping off the public, yet you are silent about the companies in this thread and others. Do you think these people have been "sucking off the public nipple?"


    Show me how any transportation system is really self-supporting.

    By your thinking, mass transit in NYC is a failure, because it isn't profitable. But would the city be profitable without it?

    Let's not build anything unless it can operate as a business. Except the financial sector of course. When it fails, business rules no longer apply, and it can be subsidized.

    Still more narrow thinking from the Party of No.

  15. #45
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Couple of things..


    First, there is a big old "discussion" of this here:

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthre...igh+speed+rail

    And one of the points is just how many places this train will travel to... 25 stops and counting:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Cahsr_map.svg

    10 stops from SF to LA.

    One person was complaining about getting off in SF and having to BART around to get to where he was going (I cannot say that that is 100% valid, as if you were to take the plane, you would still need to cab/rental/BART around SF).

    My point being, that when you get too many people deciding what towns are "important" to include, you end up getting a "rapid transit" that takes too long to make it practical.

    The biggest key here for use, more than just cost, is whether or not this system will or will not be a bigger PITA to those that use it (security, check-in, delays, space/comfort levels).

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