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Thread: World Trade Center Collapse Theories

  1. #31

    Default More baseless musings?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
    Also, the 9-11 site you referenced to Jason[ik] has a LOT of problems with it.
    Are you saying that the more than 100 pages of North Tower Blueprints are somehow erroneous? A quick glance at any of them would show anyone with as much knowledge about construction as you purport to have that there is no concrete in the core, just massive steel columns.



    *****
    Would it have done better if the core were made of braided spagetti? Maybe, but I think the collapse mechanism might have been different (floor failure rather than columnar failure). But as soon as you start putting in a large braided spagetti core, you also eliminate the need for so much steak at the perimeter, so the project economics would feed a design change.
    *****

    The steel core allowed the Towers to respond to wind loads by flexing and swaying utilizing the hat truss to redistribute loads from the tube to the core and vice versa.


  2. #32

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    http://algoxy.com/conc/core.html

    As I've posted earlier, this site's main objective seems to be proving the existence of a steel reinforced concrete core on the WTC towers. They have the project architect quoting a concrete core along with other credible sources. Now I'm really confused. Was there a concrete core or not?

  3. #33

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    Original trade center : definitely not
    New towers : yes

  4. #34
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasonik View Post
    Are you saying that the more than 100 pages of North Tower Blueprints are somehow erroneous? A quick glance at any of them would show anyone with as much knowledge about construction as you purport to have that there is no concrete in the core, just massive steel columns.
    Um...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
    No, my mistake....

    http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml

    Seems like they deliberately avoided concrete in the core.....

    Would it have done better? Maybe, but I think the collapse mechanism might have been different (floor failure rather than columnar failure). But as soon as you start putting in a large concrete core, you also eliminate the need for so much steel at the perimeter, so the project economics would force a design change.

    This building may not have fared any better at resisting an airliner collision. I would have to see what fire effects are on concrete and reinforcement....

    ST HELL U and read next time. (Acronyms are dirty )

    When someone apologizes for making an error, you do NOT go on and on about it. Now PLEASE do me a favor and retract your insipid condescending remarks and step OFF.
    Last edited by Ninjahedge; April 18th, 2007 at 11:17 AM.

  5. #35

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    I thought you were an expert on the WTC collapse?

    You can't have it both ways. Either you have special knowledge that confers on you some authority on the subject, or you make wild unsubstantiated claims (in the first reply no less). I'm sorry if you're offending by my inferring the latter, but you leave me little choice.

  6. #36
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    I worked for the company that did the analysis. I am a structural engineer, I have 12 years of experience.

    Yes I am an expert you XXXXXXX.

    You can't have it both ways. Either you have special knowledge that confers on you some authority on the subject, or you make wild unsubstantiated claims (in the first reply no less). I'm sorry if you're offending by my inferring the latter, but you leave me little choice.
    Wild unsubstantiated claims? You mean like the hat truss you showed in your drawing?

    [edit]This was meant to bring attention to the fact that I also mentioned the trusses as being a saving grace of the TT structure, not as an accusation of unsubstantial assertions. It was meant to be a disgruntaled statement of agreement, but could be read the wrong way... [/edit]

    What's with the animosity? Still crying over Imus? Give me a break. I admitted a mistake about the core, but you gloss right over it and continue to insult me.

    Then when it is brought to your attention that I did apologies, you insult me some more instead of apologizing.

    What is WRONG with you man?
    Last edited by Ninjahedge; April 23rd, 2007 at 05:25 PM.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
    Wild unsubstantiated claims? You mean like the hat truss you showed in your drawing?
    The hat truss schematic whose hotlink has expired can be found on page 11 of the:

    Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster: Final Report of the National Construction Safety Team on the Collapses of the World Trade Center Tower (DRAFT)

    Found here (The first heading: Full Report (292 pgs.)):

    http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/#draft


    Grow a pair.
    You've lost all credibility with me.
    Remind me to never have you do any of my engineering.

  8. #38
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasonik View Post
    The hat truss schematic whose hotlink has expired can be found on page 11 of the:

    Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster: Final Report of the National Construction Safety Team on the Collapses of the World Trade Center Tower (DRAFT)

    Found here (The first heading: Full Report (292 pgs.)):

    http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/#draft


    Grow a pair.
    You've lost all credibility with me.
    Remind me to never have you do any of my engineering.
    Like I would want to work with you now.

    I was not saying your hat truss was NOT credible, AAMOF, I WAS THE FIRST ONE TO MENTION IT!

    GET YOUR ARGUMENTS STRAIT, or do you have a problem with ever admitting you are wrong?

    GMAB. I come in, apologize for being incorrect about the concrete core and you PERSIST IN LAMBASTING ME, even misreading things I am posting and using the misreading as some unsubstantiated proof of fallacy when, if you had simply gotten off your holier than thou high horse and READ what I said you would see that I mentioned the hat truss in the very post that I believe you said was full of errors.



    As for the 9-11 site you linked to, I read through some of the claims they were making and it seems to be on the conspiracy bandwagon. Pleas pick through it and tell us what you find that may, oh I don't know, disagree with the other things you have posted here in defense of your position.

    Pull the arrows out of your side and quit whimpering and maybe you will realize that you were the one who put them there in the first place!

    Self inflicted martyrdom is so gauche.

  9. #39
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    Bumping for Veng and some others.


    /me leaves.

  10. #40

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    So was it a concrete core or not?

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogerick1970 View Post
    So was it a concrete core or not?
    No, it wasn't.

  12. #42

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    Problems of Disaster Mitigation and Design

    Designing tall buildings to withstand this sort of attack seems next to impossible. It would require a much thicker insulation of steel, with blast-resistant protective cover. Replacing the rectangular framed tube by a hardened circular monolithic tube with tiny windows might help to deflect much of the debris and fuel from an impacting aircraft sideways, but regardless of cost, who would want to work in such a building?

    The problems appear to be equally severe for concrete columns because concrete heated to such temperatures [800 C] undergoes explosive thermal spalling, thermal fracture and disintegration due to dehydration of hardened cement paste (e.g., Baˇzant and Kaplan 1996). These questions arise not only for buildings supported on many columns but also for the recent designs of tall buildings with a massive monolithic concrete core functioning as a tubular mast. These recent designs use high-strength concrete which, however, is even more susceptible to explosive thermal spalling and thermal fracture than normal concrete. The useof refractory concretes as the structural material invites many open questions (Baˇzant and Kaplan 1996). Special alloys or various refractory ceramic composites may of course function at such temperatures, but the cost would increase astronomically.
    Source:
    Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse?—Simple Analysis
    By Zdenˇek P. Baˇzant1, Fellow ASCE, and Yong Zhou

  13. #43

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    From the above description it sounds like an all concrete building eg trump chicago would be completely f***** is it was attacked in the same manner, the concrete starts to change properties at 800c less than steel i believe?

  14. #44

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    Here is a good picture of the core.


  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by conezone View Post
    Here is a good picture of the core.


    Wow, it looks so fragile. Im suprised on how long these buildings remained up. It was definately an act of God.

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