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Thread: NYC Casino?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Dynamicdezzy's Avatar
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    Default NYC Casino?

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    Local tribe ready to roll dice on casino bid at Aqueduct

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    BY TRACY CONNOR

    DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

    Sunday, October 14th 2007, 4:06 AM


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    Slot machines such as these, at Caesars Atlantic City, could be a fixture in Queens under the current proposal.

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    It could be goodbye cottages & hello mansions on East End


    A Native American tribe is set to drop a bombshell bid to build and run the city's first casino — a $1.4 billion gaming palace at Aqueduct Racetrack, the Daily News has learned.

    The last-minute proposal may be a long shot, but the Shinnecock Indians are hoping to entice the city and state with the prospect of a half-billion dollars in revenue a year.

    The tribe also is dangling another sweetener: a promise to drop its fight to build a casino on its ancestral lands in Southampton, which has roiled the playground of the rich and powerful.

    The Shinnecock bid, which will be submitted to the state tomorrow, aims to upend plans for a smaller video-lottery complex at the Thoroughbred race track in Ozone Park, Queens.

    Three companies are expected to submit bids to run that lottery facility, a racino slated to have 4,500 video terminals.

    But the Shinnecock — who are teamed with a Michigan sports mogul who operates a Detroit casino — have a far grander vision rivaling Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun in Connecticut.

    The bid calls for a million-square-foot casino with 10,500 slots, 350 gaming tables and 12,000 employees. A 1,200-room hotel and other amenities would be built with community input, the tribe says.

    "It would be great for the City of New York," said Fred Bess, a Shinnecock trustee. "New York is tired of watching all the gaming revenues going to Atlantic City and Connecticut."

    Though casinos are illegal in New York, federally recognized Indian tribes can build gambling facilities on their reservation land.

    In 2003, the Shinnecock sparked an uproar by breaking ground for a casino on an 80-acre parcel called Westwood on the east end of Long Island.

    The town of Southampton and the state responded with a federal lawsuit seeking to stop the tribe. A trial ended in May, and a decision from the judge could come any day.

    The Shinnecock believe they are likely to win the case — and they are also hopeful about a pending suit that lays claim to 2,800 acres of Hamptons land and demands billions from the state for seizing it.

    The litigation, they believe, can be used as leverage to forge a deal on Aqueduct. Powerful opponents of a Hamptons casino theoretically would lobby for the Shinnecock to run a facility in the city instead.

    But even if the political stars aligned, the Shinnecock would face another stumbling block: They must be federally recognized as a tribe to open a casino.

    A federal judge's ruling recognized the Shinnecock in 2005, but the tribe is still trying to force the U.S. Department of the Interior to acknowledge it. A lawsuit was filed last year.

    Bess said he is optimistic the tribe can negotiate a global settlement with the state and feds — giving it tribal recognition and making the land around the racetrack reservation property.

    "I think it's a good shot and anybody who looks at it will have to give serious consideration," Bess said.

    The Shinnecock have no experience running a casino but they have partnered with Gateway Casino Resorts, a venture of Michigan business mogul Marian Ilitch.

    Ilitch, who co-founded Little Caesar's Pizza and owns the Detroit Tigers and the Detroit Red Wings, owns the MotorCity Casino Resort in Detroit and should be considered a serious player, an industry analyst said.

    "They're kind of a small company but I think they have a lot of respect," said Roger Gros, publisher of Global Gaming Business magazine.

    He said MotorCity has performed as well as the MGM Grand Detroit under Ilitch's control. "That has really impressed me," he said.

    The Aqueduct bid estimates a full-size casino would bring in $2.1 billion annually. The city and state would share a 25% kickback from the $1.5 billion generated annually by the casino's slot machines and would receive added tax revenues.

    By contrast, the video lottery racino that opened at Yonkers Raceway last October with 5,500 terminals grossed $350 million in its first year.

    The Shinnecock would have nothing to do with horse racing. Gov. Spitzer has endorsed a plan for the New York Racing Association to continue operating the track.

    Other players in the hunt for gambling gold

    Before the Shinnecock Indians entered the fray, three private companies were vying to run the gambling operations at Aqueduct Racetrack.

    Empire Racing, Excelsior and Capital Play all submitted proposals to take over horse racing at Aqueduct, Belmont and Saratoga and run the video lottery terminals at Aqueduct.

    But Gov. Spitzer has recommended the New York Racing Association keep the horse-racing franchise at all three tracks — and a separate contract be awarded for the video slots.

    The deadline for bids is tomorrow. It's unclear who will step forward. But here's a look at the companies that have expressed interest:

    Excelsior

    Backed by Las Vegas casino developer Steve Wynn, the group also includes politically connected gaming developer Richard Fields.

    Empire Racing

    A Saratoga-based coalition of horse-racing and gambling interests. Churchill Downs and thoroughbred breeder Marylou Whitney withdrew last week.

    Capital Play

    An Australian-based gaming company allied with real estate developer Stephen Ross and the Mohegan Sun.

    There were reports last week that Capital Play and Empire Racing may join forces.
    tconnor@nydailynews.com



    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007...on_casino.html

  2. #2
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Enough already.

    Since when are we obligated to pay back the sins of our forefathers by fostering the sins of our neighbors?

    These "tribes" (I say that loosely seeing how few are any more "native" than the next man) are making money primarily on the hopes and dreams of the people they fleece.

    There was a reason for the prohibition of gambling in most of the country. Somehow giving special privilege to these people to bring something that benefits few on something so addictive is such a perverted way to look at remuneration.

    One wrong should not be amended by more wrongs. These casinos are getting out of hand.

  3. #3
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    PS, I am not trying to bask the Natives here. I do not approve of a lot of the things that we do to validate our gambling ventures. I do not care for the lotteries, OTB or even the established venues.

    They seem to make the most money off of people wanting to remove themselves from their own troubles. It's really sad.....

  4. #4
    Senior Member Dynamicdezzy's Avatar
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    Development Could Race to Aqueduct
    By ELIOT BROWN
    Staff Reporter of the Sun
    May 24, 2007

    A D V E R T I S E M E N T


    A D V E R T I S E M E N T

    With the state mulling the future of the Aqueduct Racetrack in Queens, a giant swath of land near John F. Kennedy International Airport could be the city's next development frontier.

    If Governor Spitzer were to close the track, it could open up an unprecedented opportunity to develop the sprawling 192-acre site in an area that sits next to a subway line, highways, and one of America's largest airports.

    Assemblyman James Gary Pretlow, a Democrat of Yonkers who heads the committee on racing and wagering, said members of the Spitzer administration told his office that shutting down the track was an option they are considering. A horse racing Web site, Bloodhorse.com, last week first reported that Mr. Spitzer was considering closing the storied 113-year-old Aqueduct and shifting the races to nearby Belmont Park. The article caught by surprise numerous legislators involved with the horserace industry and real estate developers.

    "It probably is the largest undeveloped hunk of viable real estate in the city," a professor of urban studies at CUNY's Queens College, Martin Hanlon, said. "In terms of potential for development, it's very much there — you have the Belt Parkway, you have the A train."

    The current operator of the Aqueduct, Belmont, and Saratoga racecourses, the New York Racing Association, has a contract that is set to expire at the end of 2007, and the state is currently engaged in choosing from four bidders to award a new contract.

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    Senior Member Dynamicdezzy's Avatar
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    ^ The fact that the race track could be removed for development is more interesting to me than a potential Casino. All that land near the airport.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
    Enough already.

    Since when are we obligated to pay back the sins of our forefathers by fostering the sins of our neighbors?

    These "tribes" (I say that loosely seeing how few are any more "native" than the next man) are making money primarily on the hopes and dreams of the people they fleece.

    There was a reason for the prohibition of gambling in most of the country. Somehow giving special privilege to these people to bring something that benefits few on something so addictive is such a perverted way to look at remuneration.

    One wrong should not be amended by more wrongs. These casinos are getting out of hand.
    Pragmatically speaking, this is not really as much a question of morality or restitution, as it is a matter of law. I believe Native American land is soverien (at least to a degree) and as such outside the jusidiction of Federal, State, and local govt. And there Sir McDuff, lies the rub.

  7. #7
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    I know.

    It is a loophole that must be closed, or treating said land as another country might be warranted.

    You want to gamble? Have your passport ready!

  8. #8

    Default Go Ahead-Build a Casino

    Horse racing (like a lot of other participatory gaming sports,such as dog races,jai-alai and card rooms),is losing patrons--and interest--as more and more gamblers embrace more sophisticated forms of gambling.Why go to the track if you can use OTB or the internet?
    Casinos,which employ a very active form of in-person gaming,are attracting the dollars that once went to the ponies and are simultaneously finding more and more patrons as they proliferate all around the US.Everyone,it seems.wants to blow a paycheck or two at the Casino.

    There are casinos everywhere.Some are on paddlewheel steamers,some are in unlikely places,like Tunica,Mississippi or Cherokee,NC.The Casinos were the first things rebuilt along the Gulf Coast after Katrina.Same thing for New Orleans.Harrah's opened back up six months after NO got slammed.(Ironically,it was used as a Police substation as the City recovered).They provide a LOT of employment in places that really need jobs,and a way to feed a jones if you REALLY need to gamble.

    Combining a racetrack with a top-shelf Casino complex can only be a good thing for NY,firstly because (at least at Acqueduct )it will preserve an important morsel of New York's postwar entertainment culture;and secondly,for the incredible number of dollars it can put into NYC's money market accounts.

    Indian tribes wised up years ago to the potential that casinos had,and they acted fast.Anywhere that the various tribes found parcels of tribal land,anywhere where their lawyers could find loopholes,the tribal leaders exploited that and built gambling houses.Meantime,places like Atlantic City and Vegas expanded their corporate gambling infrastructure enormously,to the point where there is a FIVE BILLION dollar complex now being built in the desert.

    In Florida,where Casinos are prohibited by Constitutional Law,several native Sons--the Miccosukkee and the Seminole--expanded their enterprises from selling untaxed cigarettes and liquor from tin-roofed drive-throughs on a patch of Tribal land to full-blown,half-million square-foot casinos and multi-story hotel destinations,replete with live,big name entertainment and killer restaurants and lounges.

    Florida wised up,too,and the tax revenue,license fees and kickbacks from the casinos help keep the State's budget in the black.

    The Miccosukkee went from a forlorn tribe on the edge of the Everglades--they were all living in third-world desperation twenty years ago--to a Nation of affluent families,living the Florida dream thanks to the increasingly generous shares that all tribal members are entitled to from the profits their casino generates.
    The community,once a dusty slum in the swampy wilderness along the Tamiami Trail,is now fueled by a never-ending stream of lost dollars--it is spiffed up and attractive,filled with nice homes,good schools,it's own police and fire services and an overflowing treasury.

    Ditto in Tampa,where the Seminole retained a few acres within the City and sold smokes and booze since I can remember.Now their land is like a square block of Vegas,surrounded by proper old Tampa,and they have just announced plans to DOUBLE the size of the complex.Their smoke shops and liquor emporiums resemble Sam's Club.Seminoles are wealthy in Florida.

    The areas areound both places are growing as well.What used to be an outdoor shooting range across from the Micco. Casino on Krome Ave is now a shopping and entertainment site,and in Tampa an expired mall near the Casino has come back to life and a lot of motels and restaurants are going up.
    A huge outdoor concert venue,the Ford Auditorium (located on State Fairgrounds) is about a quarter of a mile from the Casino and there is a shuttle service to the Casino's doors after concerts.The lines for the busses are 100 people long.
    Limousine businesses in Tampa,something that for decades was dormant and depending on funerals and Homecomings to keep afloat,are now booming,delivering gamers to the Seminole Nation from all over the Bay Area.

    I think,despite the somewhat shady way that the Indians obtained Acqueduct,that a Casino can only be a good thing for New York,a better one for Queens.The tax revenues should be in the billions,Acqueduct is preserved and New York can add another "must-see" destination to it's resume.

  9. #9
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Hof,

    Where does this money come from?

    A lot of surveys and studies have been performed that show that the people who gamble are usually the ones that can't afford it. they are looking for a way out of the life they have.

    So the problem becomes, what happens to these people when they now have a place right in their back yard where they can lose their money?

    Money just does not appear. It comes from somewhere, the thing is, people rarely look at who is hurt by these things, they just look at the bling it brings.

  10. #10

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    I have a much simpler reason this should be allowed:

    A large number of NYers are already participating in casino gambling. While there are some legal casino-type facilities in NY (Turning Stone upstate, Empire City), that's not where most of the money is going. Either it's going to out of state casinos (AC, Eastern CT), or it's going to some level of organized crime. If legal casinos where allowed, this money, and the jobs it creates could be captured for legal use in NY.

    Also, while the Indian gambling loophole is the most likely way this will happen, I think the state would be stupid to confine it to that. They should repeal the constitutional ban an casino gambling, and allow full commercial gaming in NY. This would breed competition among the gaming companies, which would server both their customers and employees (they'd have to compete for workers).

    Also, I categorically reject the 'moral' arguments against gambling. We're talking here about allowing adults to chose how to spend their income in a legal, regulated environment. The people who choose not to gamble have no obligation to do so, but they also have no right to tell those who want to that they can't.

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    membro sκnior giselehaslice's Avatar
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    If they build it, first of all it will be the same thing as one of those Pennsylvania Slots Parlors, whcih are esentially and arcade, not classy.. really cheesy, not resort-like and such, and definatley wont be an MGM Grand Atlantic City.

    ^and for the "keep the money in NY" idea... well, maybe NJ and Connecticut better build an NYC in thier own state, becuase god forbid we drive a few miles and then spend money in another state...I wonder how well New York would do if this happened.
    Last edited by giselehaslice; October 15th, 2007 at 07:57 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Where The Money Comes From...

    The money that funds the Casino's take,at least in the cities I cited-comes from one principal source--tourists.I have been to all of them,except Tunica,and I guarantee that everybody in these palaces were just like me--a visitor from afar.

    People visiting Miami who get bored with the beach can travel 1 hour West,and there is an authentic casino for them to get burned in.
    There are even FREE shuttles that ply South Beach.They always arrive at the Casino filled with eager gamers,day or night.
    Tourists on Florida's West Coast and Central section bail from the kiddytime theme parks and seek some Serious Adult Time in Tampa.It's become a Destination.The Seminoles beckon,especially since they have been agressively marketing themselves to the sixty million visitors Florida gets annually.

    New Orleans,despite it's unfortunate recent destruction,still has millions of visitors to The French Quarter annually.Harrah's sits at the foot of Canal St.Anyone entering the Quarter from the West has to pass it.Locals pass it daily,on their way to work Downtown.And I'll bet,10 to 1 odds,that if you swept Harrah's unexpectedly and asked for ID from all those inside,except for those actually working there almost everybody would be from Somewhere Else.

    Vegas and A.C. have millions of visitors annually,benefits they have gained from just being themselves,big gambling havens.Nobody goes to Vegas for the museums,and they never have.Some people have moved to Vegas to be closer to the casinos...and,always a major tourist site,Atlantic City watched itself decline as folks lost interest in the Boardwalk,this,before Casinos Came to Town.Nobody really wants to actually LIVE in Atlantic City,so you know where most of the the Boardwalk strollers are from--elsewhere.

    The Gulf Coast of Alabama and Mississippi pulled itself out of a slump that has lasted since the the '60s and actually created a whole new tourism industry to feed it's dozen or so Casinos.Even before the casinos,it had a busy tourist season.It's an area playfully called "The Redneck Riviera" and attracts folks to it's beaches by the millions.Now,millions more come to gamble.

    Cherokee,despite being in the middle of nothing much,still gets a large number of gamblers from tourists playing in Maggie's Valley or driving the Blue Ridge.

    Get the thread???
    It's tourism dollars,the "...what the hell,we're on freakin' vacation..." people who fuel the gambling furnace!!!High rollers for a few weeks a year,they flock to casinos as a way to entertain themselves,losses be damned.
    I don't have statistics before me,but I'm sure that 80%-90% of the gaming houses' revenue comes from people outside their population circles.The unfortunate local few who wager away their Social Security check or the baby's Christmas gifts are small in number,and would probably find numerous ways to piss away their money if there were no casinos handy.

    Just like the price of Ferraris deter the poor from aspiring to one,most of the working class shun casinos and gambling in general as an expensive source of entertainment,something just NOT in the budget.How many of the Casino's poker dealers or bartenders stick around on Fridays and gamble away their paychecks,do you think??
    It's the tourist who make them viable,and if you have a built-in supply,a casino prospers immediately.

    And New York gets HOW many Tourists annually?
    And most of them fly into...where?
    And Acqueduct is HOW far from these airports?

    By the way,I'm no kind of a gambler.During two days in Vegas,I saw maybe $25/day of my money go across the tables.In each of the places I cite,I dropped maybe $20,just for grins.Once,in Biloxi,I went up $600 at a BJ table.I took the money and ran.I may buy a few Lotto numbers from time to time,but that's it.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by giselehaslice View Post
    If they build it, first of all it will be the same thing as one of those Pennsylvania Slots Parlors, whcih are esentially and arcade, not classy.. really cheesy, not resort-like and such, and definatley wont be an MGM Grand Atlantic City.
    You say that, but it could also be like Foxwoods/Mohegan Sun. If you get a casino franchise in NYC, I think they completely maximize it. The indian casinos are usually full service, unlike slot parlors like Empire City.

    ^and for the "keep the money in NY" idea... well, maybe NJ and Connecticut better build an NYC in thier own state, becuase god forbid we drive a few miles and then spend money in another state...I wonder how well New York would do if this happened.
    Have you been to JC or Stamford lately? They're trying. I've been fed this line of crap on other thread, and I'm not buying it. I don't see why anyone would think that other states should have a gambline franchise that excludes NY.

  14. #14

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    Hof,

    I think you underestimate the impact of local gamblers. In Vegas, there are large chains of casinos that live off the locals market (Station, Boyd, etc). In AC, if you extend the range of 'locals' to include the southern half of Jersey, you find plenty of locals there. I think you could also include the hordes of week day bus-trippers as locals, if only in spirit.

    A major casino at Aquaduct would probably be at most 50% tourists. I think there's a lot of local demand for gambling, and those gamblers would be filling the place.

  15. #15
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Why do we have so much of a problem with people in debt after gambling?

    Why are there clinics and help groups for people addicted to it?

    Gambling is not something to be taken as lightly as Para-sailing. Something only tourists do to spend their vacation dollars.

    What demographic of people spend their money in casinos Hof? If the major demographic is below the mean, how is this fostering growth?

    It is only another way to get the money from the many to the few. And the whole "it benefits the community" is akin to a Wal Mart argument. It benefits very few, and only in the area that it is built in. Other areas suffer because of the drain it puts on them.

    Instead of looking for ways to get people to come in and gamble, maybe we should be looking for ways to get people who HAVE the money to come in and spend it here. You think all the Europeans come here to gamble?

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