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Thread: The European Union and Immigration

  1. #376
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Fallen Arches, I guess......

  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kris View Post
    I would like the american don't take the far right as average french opinion when it isn't the case.
    They did a pork and alcohol picknick in central Paris the last week ends, result : only 300 people came.

    The first pork and alcohol picknick planned was near this mosque, it was banned by the police and the organisator was not an inhabitant of the district but she lived in Alsace.
    If muslims pray in this street, it is because the two mosques located here are too small.

    EDIT : I nseen other video of CBN, I don't think we can call it journalism, propaganda would be a more correct word.
    Last edited by Minato ku; September 10th, 2010 at 06:46 PM.

  3. #378

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    Riposte Laïque (the group in question, which is a journal with a political offshoot) is composed mostly of staunch left-wing secularists. The last event they organized wasn't a "pork and alcohol picnic" but a number of apéritifs républicains in several French cities. Their goals, according to their manifesto, were to "show our will that the republican law elaborated by all remain above all other law, religious or customary", call for "the dissolution of all parties, associations and organizations which promote sharia" and ask the French Counsel of Muslim Cult to condemn it. It seems reasonable to me. You're right to note that the crowds at the apéritifs were reportedly underwhelming, which didn't prevent one of their leaders (the female one, coincidentally) from receiving death threats.

    The "sausage and wine" event was planned in response to public prayers which have illegally been taking place for years on several streets in the 18th arrondissement of Paris. You can condemn the provocation (as well as their association for the event with a far right, or at least "populist" party), but without it the general public would have been without knowledge of the public prayers since they had been ignored by the mainstream media. That, and the cowardice of the authorities, is the true scandal.

    As mentioned in the report, people were filmed leaving the neighborhood after the prayers. The head of the Grande Mosquée told them there was plenty of room left in Paris's largest mosque. The reason they give is bogus - they're making a statement.

    I nseen other video of CBN, I don't think we can call it journalism, propaganda would be a more correct word.
    The report is fairer and more accurate than those in the French media. You can contest its focus on a marginal problem, instead of the deteriorating situation in many French suburbs.

  4. #379

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    The Christian Broadcasting Network ^ seems to relish the possibility of a religious war.

    The French began making their bed in Algeria. You can't colonize a people and not accept some consequences.
    This isn't a religious war but a fight to uphold secularism. All European countries with mass immigration from Muslim countries have similar problems, including those with no such colonial past (like Denmark).

  5. #380
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    From the POV of the CBN it ain't secular.

    Unless you're talking secular Christianity.

  6. #381

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    How can you say that? What inside info do you have? Do you believe in libel?

  7. #382
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    No inside info needed. True Believers await The Rapture. Armageddon is foretold.

    Whether or not anyone believes in libel is a silly question. Libel is a legal term. The act has either taken place or it hasn't.

    What's libelous in the statement you point to?

  8. #383

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    Transferring to New York:

    Closing off public streets on a regular basis would not be permitted; would only be allowed (with permit) on a case by case basis. Additionally, the government permitting the use of the streets for any religious observance is a violation of the separation of church and state.

    Doesn't matter who or how many support or oppose it.

    There may be differences with the US Constitution, but laïcité was codified into French law in 1905.

  9. #384

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    "Additionally, the government permitting the use of the streets for any religious observance is a violation of the separation of church and state."


    ^ would this also apply to the Muslim fellow in NYC shown in a photo in one of the threads who pulled out a rug and kneeled down to pray?

  10. #385
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    That could be considered a violation of NYC code ala "impeding access on a sidewalk" -- but given the number of vendors who do the same all over downtown, and who do so for hours on end with no violation issued by the understaffed walking-the-beat gang from the NYPD, it would be very surprising if such an action (which is over within 5 minutes) would result in a written violation. In my experience, these type of infractions are only acted upon when complaints are registered via Mayor Mike's 311 phone line (his version of the circular file) and then the questionable action must be viewed and witnessed by the inspecting officer before the write-up occurs. Then the bureaucracy takes over.

    Blocking streets is under the purview of the vehicular NYPD -- a whole different and much more effective animal. Last Friday night, during the 2nd Annual Fashion's Night Out, a couple of blocks of Broadway were overrun by rabid fashion hounds, all trying to get a glance of Gwen Stefani in the windows of Sephora (go figure) and angling for some freebies at Prada a half block away. Hundreds of folks swarmed into the streets, completely closing Broadway for about 20 minutes, blocking traffic and mounting cabs to express their shopping glee. But a squad of NYPD cars & trucks, lights flashing and sirens blaring, soon arrived and the crowds were cleared STAT. The NYPD doesn't like these kind of surprise gatherings. They like to keep things under control, with barricades and viewing pens for folks on foot. Methinks Anna Wintour and the NYC retail crews are going to have to show a better sense of planning if they want FNO to extend to a 3rd year.

  11. #386
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    ^I hate the over zealous use of barricades by the NYPD, though.
    ---

    Who’s Racist Now? Europe’s Increasing Intolerance



    With the rising tide of terrorist threats across Europe, one can somewhat understandably expect a surge in Islamophobia across the West. Yet in a contest to see which can be more racist, one would be safer to bet on Europe than on the traditional bogeyman, the United States.

    One clear indicator of how flummoxed Europeans have become about diversity were the remarks last week by German Chancellor Angela Merkel saying that multi-culturalism has “totally failed” in her country, the richest and theoretically most capable of absorbing immigrants. “We feel tied to Christian values,” the Chancellor said. “Those who don’t accept them don’t have a place here.”

    One can appreciate Merkel’s candor but it does say something the limitations about the continent’s ability, and even willingness, to absorb immigrants. It’s quite a change from the generations-old tendency among Europeans, particularly on the left, to denigrate America as a kind of hot bed for racism. Yet even before the latest report of potential terrorist attacks in several western European cities, the center of Islamophobia – and related ethnic hatreds – has been shifting inexorably to the European continent.

    Of course, America has always had its bigots, and still does. And of course, Islamists who threaten or commit violence need to be arrested and thrown behind bars. But, to date, neither major political party has been able to make openly white-supremacist politics a successful leading platform. After all, what was the last time anyone took Pat Buchanan , who has made comments similar to those of Merkel, seriously? Despite the brouhaha over the Arizona anti-illegal alien law, only 5% of Americans consider immigration the nation’s most pressing issue, according to a September Gallup poll.

    The situation in Europe is quite different. Openly racist, anti-immigrant and Islamophobic groupings are on the rise, and they are wreaking havoc on once subdued European politics. Traditional mainstream parties are declining, and the new racist parties can be seen in broad daylight in Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden and the Netherlands, where populist firebrand Geert Wilders has suggested banning the Koran. In Italy the anti-immigrant Northern League is already hugely powerful.

    It is true that as many Europeans as Americans–about half–think immigration is bad for their countries. The big difference is what Europeans are willing to do about it. Just consider French President Nicholas Sarkozy’s farcical effort this fall to expel the hapless Roma.

    Yet for most Europeans the big issue is not purse-snatching gypsies but fear and loathing toward the expanding presence of Muslims–who are at least three times as numerous in the E.U. as in the U.S. Over half of Spaniards and Germans, according to Pew, hold negative views of Muslims. So do roughly 40% of the French. In contrast, only 23% of Americans share this sentiment.

    More disturbing, Europe is actually putting these ethnic hostilities into law. An early sign came this winter, when the usually phlegmatic Swiss voted to prohibit the building of new minarets. More recently a ban on burqas – the admittedly unattractive female body suits favored by some orthodox Muslims – passed in France, home to Europe’s largest Muslim community. The same measure is now being considered in Spain.

    These actions reflect a broad, and deepening, stream of European public opinion. A recent Pew survey found that over 80% of the French support banning the burqa, as do over 70% of Germans and a large majority of Spaniards and British.

    In contrast, nearly two-thirds of Americans find the burqa ban distasteful. Burqas don’t exactly stir admiring glances in the shopping mall, but few Amercians think we need to ban them. The basic ideal of “don’t tread on me” means “don’t tread on them” as well – at least until they start blowing themselves up at Wal-mart.

    This nuance escapes some of our own knee-jerk racial obsessives, like the Atlanta Journal Constitution’s Cynthia Tucker, who equates opposition to a mosque at Ground Zero as proof of a “new McCarthyism” aimed against Muslims. But you don’t have to be a bigot to have second thoughts about erecting a mosque at the very spot where innocents were slaughtered by radical Islamists.

    Critical here are profound differences between the U.S. and Europe in the role played by ethnicity, race and religion. On the continent national culture is precisely that — the product of a long history of a particular ethnic group. Small minorities, such as Jews in Holland or Armenians in France, are tolerated but expected to submerge their ethnic identities. France has many artists and writers who may be Jewish, but you don’t see many French Woody Allens or Larry Davids who exploit their otherness to help define the national culture.

    Muslim attitudes in Europe are not exactly helpful either. European Muslims often seem more interested in breaking the national mold than adding to its contours. More than 80% of British Muslims, for example, identify themselves as Muslims first before being British. This is true of nearly 70% of Muslims in Spain or Germany. Similarly, up to 40% of Britain’s Islamic population believe that terrorist attacks on both Americans and their fellow Britons are justified.

    This alienation also reflects an appalling social and economic reality. In European countries immigrants can receive welfare more easily than join the workforce, and their job prospects are confined by education levels that lag those of immigrants in the United States, Canada and Australia. In France unemployment among immigrants–particularly those from Muslim countries–is often at least twice that of the native born; in Britain Muslims are far more likely to be out of the workforce than either Christians or Hindus.
    Partly due to a less generous welfare state, American immigrant workers with lower educations have, for the most part, been more economically active than their nonimmigrant counterparts. The contrast is even more telling among Muslim immigrants. In America most Muslims are comfortably middle class, with income and education levels above the national average. They are more likely to be satisfied with the state of the country, their own community and their prospects for success than are other Americans—even in the face of the reaction to 9-ll.

    More important still, more than half of Muslims identify themselves as Americans first, a far higher percentage than in the various countries of Western Europe. More than four in five are registered to vote, a sure sign of civic involvement. Almost three-quarters, according to a Pew study, say they have never been discriminated against–something that is definitely not the case in Europe where a majority, according to Pew, complain of discrimination.

    Over time, these differences between Europe and America may become even more pronounced. America is becoming increasingly diverse, but it is also growing demographically, and Muslims make up a very small part of that. There’s little fear in America of the kind of Muslim envelopment that appears to threaten a rapidly aging, and soon to be depopulating, Europe.

    Of course the U.S. still has its bigoted Islamophobes, just as it has its own small cadre of vicious Islamists. One law of history appears to be that morons will be morons. But America’s culture seems strong enough to resist the anti-immigrant hysteria emerging throughout Europe. This is one case where la difference between America and Europe may prove a very good thing indeed.

  12. #387

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    I love this:

    "Of course, America has always had its bigots, and still does. ..... But, to date, neither major political party has been able to make openly white-supremacist politics a successful leading platform."

    This is the country that has slaughtered how many Muslims over the last 10 years? 100,000? 200,000? 500,000? .... who even knows.

  13. #388
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    But does that invalidate the statement?

    Also, have any European politicians been able to win a position by making openly white supremacist politics their platform?
    Last edited by Ninjahedge; November 3rd, 2010 at 04:02 PM.

  14. #389

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    All hail Europe!

  15. #390

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    This from the article is rather hilarious:

    "In contrast, nearly two-thirds of Americans find the burqa ban distasteful. Burqas don’t exactly stir admiring glances in the shopping mall, but few Amercians think we need to ban them. The basic ideal of “don’t tread on me” means “don’t tread on them” as well – at least until they start blowing themselves up at Wal-mart."

    The article by the way, posted without link and without author, is from Forbes.

    Forbes is the publication that published the famous "How Obama Thinks".
    Last edited by Fabrizio; November 3rd, 2010 at 03:32 PM.

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