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Thread: Murcia: Business Center Metropolis Empire

  1. #1126

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    Thank you so much for all the information. It's the most clear information about ZAL I ever read last days. I think someone could learn something about it before writing again...

  2. #1127

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    I am an Englishwoman living in Cartagena. I was at the demonstration. Yes, you will always get the odd joker in a demo but most of the people there were sensible enough. The people of Cartagena are extremely angry because the exact route of the FERMED plan came out recently. FERMED was meant to take in major ports. Cartagena is one. Murcia is 50 kms inland. The route goes through a hub (ZAL) in Murcia and then goes off to smaller ports in Almeria. This is quite rightly seen as a slight. There is a freight railway line into the port of Escombreras where Cartagena´s refinery is. This could have been used. There is bad blood between Murcia and Cartagena because of a series of other things. For instance a Murcia city student who goes to the University in Cartagena gets his bus fare paid. But a Cartagena student going to the University of Murcia does not. Probably the bad blood between the cities did start in the thirteenth century when the Cartagena bishopric was relocated to Murcia without any papal conset being involved. The cathedral is a sore point also because Murcia allocated funds to restore its own beautiful cathedral but failed to give money to restore the older one in Cartagena. CArtagena has an important history. It has been the capital of Spain under the Carthaginians, Romans, Byzantine period and the Visigoths. Murcia City did not exist in those times. It´s easy to dismiss "cantonalists" as freaky but the reality is that Cartagena could become a separate region if it came to agreement with neighbouring towns such as La Union, San Javier, Torre Pacheco, etc. Alicante is a separate region from Valencia in a similar way.

  3. #1128

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    Hola a todos. Soy participante activo de forocartagena y quisiera decir algo acerca de las recurrentes polémicas, desde mi punto de vista tan ruidosas como estériles.

    He leído en este hilo los siempre interesantes argumentos de mi buen amigo Dr.T y creo que bueno sería que tanto el autor como los lectores fueran ajenos a la ponzoña tiempo atrás creada (esto es parecido, pero con otros objetivos, a aquéllo que decía Robert Graves en boca del Emperador Claudio: “que toda la ponzoña que acecha en el fango salga a la superficie”).

    Encuentro intolerables algunos calificativos vertidos aquí utilizando el término "fascista" o "neofascista" refiriéndose a gente de Cartagena que defiende lo que cree mejor para su ciudad. Nada hay más parecido a una superficie cóncava que una convexa, esto es, el fascismo y el comunismo (la supuesta "esencia" de la democracia) tienen el mismo origen y los mismos objetivos. Por ello, por favor, desterrad esos anacrónicos términos del debate.

    Así las cosas, si es que somos capaces de debatir, seguramente aprenderíamos todos.

  4. #1129
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    Hi Pablo (Aenobarbo)
    It is a pleasure to greet you again.
    I've seen on the network your recent sculptural works in Albacete
    Congrats !
    -------------------------
    NOTE 1 (SPA): Sabes la buena amistad que me une a tí y el respeto profesional que te profeso, pero también conoces lo mucho que me recuerdan algunas personas de forocartagena a la inmortal Livia (esposa de Augusto y tía de Claudio) de Graves en "Yo Claudio", de ahí que adivinarles buenas intenciones me cueste mucho esfuerzo.

    De todos modos, los amigos son para hacerles caso aunque no te convenga... y para que te partan la cara por ellos si es menester. Dime qué post (el número) de los escritos por mi quieres que sea borrado y gustoso lo haré a tu solicitud...

    En fin, por lo demás, ando ahora por Mockba,... a ver si nos subes algo de lo que hiciste en Mali, que nos morimos de curiosidad por conocer tus diseños hoteleros en África !.

    NOTE 2 (SPA): Tenemos un "calderico" pendiente en mi casa de La Manga Club cuando vuelva, no lo olvides... jajaja
    Last edited by Dr.T; December 10th, 2010 at 04:55 PM.

  5. #1130
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    Quote Originally Posted by fionapitt-kethley View Post
    I am an Englishwoman living in Cartagena. I was at the demonstration. Yes, you will always get the odd joker in a demo but most of the people there were sensible enough. The people of Cartagena are extremely angry because the exact route of the FERMED plan came out recently. FERMED was meant to take in major ports. Cartagena is one. Murcia is 50 kms inland. The route goes through a hub (ZAL) in Murcia and then goes off to smaller ports in Almeria. This is quite rightly seen as a slight. There is a freight railway line into the port of Escombreras where Cartagena´s refinery is. This could have been used. There is bad blood between Murcia and Cartagena because of a series of other things. For instance a Murcia city student who goes to the University in Cartagena gets his bus fare paid. But a Cartagena student going to the University of Murcia does not. Probably the bad blood between the cities did start in the thirteenth century when the Cartagena bishopric was relocated to Murcia without any papal conset being involved. The cathedral is a sore point also because Murcia allocated funds to restore its own beautiful cathedral but failed to give money to restore the older one in Cartagena. CArtagena has an important history. It has been the capital of Spain under the Carthaginians, Romans, Byzantine period and the Visigoths. Murcia City did not exist in those times. It´s easy to dismiss "cantonalists" as freaky but the reality is that Cartagena could become a separate region if it came to agreement with neighbouring towns such as La Union, San Javier, Torre Pacheco, etc. Alicante is a separate region from Valencia in a similar way.
    Hi Fionapitt and welcomes !

    Cartagena was never the capital of Murcia on history, don't forget. Murcia was created and built to be the capital of a Kingdom, the Kingdom of Murcia... and remains so today. The past glories of you talking to me about the city of Cartagena are as anachronistic as if I were to tell you that Toledo should be the capital of Spain and El Escorial the capital of Madrid Community.

    As for your assertion that large logistic area (ZAL) must be in Cartagena port, my answer is no again. Why? Because it should be where are the companies that will use it, not where is the port (Cartagena) or the main railway (Murcia). The infrastructure must be economically viable and should serve as many companies as possible. That location is not Cartagena, since most large companies located in its industrial area have got their own docks at Escombreras Port. Murcia's businessmen (CROEM) tell that this site is in A-7 Motorway, behind CAEDI,... that's the question.


    About buses and cathedral in ruins in Cartagena, ... What can I say? The local authorities spent at Roman Theatre Museum more than €45 million... Maybe if they had divided the money into better shape and had not wasted happily,... you know... because Monteagudo's Castle is in ruins too.


    Cartagena Community ? ha ha ha I'm sorry, but I prefer don't answer this question. It's a nonsense question to me... You know what is the legality in Spain... No more ! Your assertion in this topic is illegal... ha ha ha... Must be a bad joke !.... ha ha ha


    Good Lucky Fionapitt...
    Last edited by Dr.T; December 10th, 2010 at 11:52 PM.

  6. #1131

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    Cartagena has been a port for 3000 years. Murcia is 50kms inland. I don´t think people object to Murcia picking up a little business via a transport hub. It is the plan to direct that business on to Almeria ports rather than Cartagena that has roused much anger. Cartagena has huge expertise regarding the sea. Apart from the big container ports in the areas of Santa Lucia and Escombreras that do business with most of the world there is a thriving shipbuilders, Navantia, that builds all the submarines for the Spanish navy and Malaysia and repairs luxury yachts. Cartagena has been used throughout history as a port because of the deep water nearby that allows huge ships to visit. This allows huge cruise ships like the Queen Elizabeth 11 to stop here. Murcia has none of this to offer. It is not a port.
    If Murcia continues with the plan to divert port business away from Cartagena to Almeria it would obviously pay Cartagena to join with neighbouring towns to become a separate region with total control over its own port and affairs. I know some people in local politics who are already talking to other mayors with this end in view.

  7. #1132

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    I think people first became aware of the problem in Cartagena with this article http://www.7nova.es/articulos/denunc...it_murcia.html
    The plan in the map quite clearly bypasses Cartagena after going through Murcia.

  8. #1133
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    Quote Originally Posted by fionapitt-kethley View Post
    Cartagena has been a port for 3000 years. Murcia is 50kms inland. I don´t think people object to Murcia picking up a little business via a transport hub. It is the plan to direct that business on to Almeria ports rather than Cartagena that has roused much anger. Cartagena has huge expertise regarding the sea. Apart from the big container ports in the areas of Santa Lucia and Escombreras that do business with most of the world there is a thriving shipbuilders, Navantia, that builds all the submarines for the Spanish navy and Malaysia and repairs luxury yachts. Cartagena has been used throughout history as a port because of the deep water nearby that allows huge ships to visit. This allows huge cruise ships like the Queen Elizabeth 11 to stop here. Murcia has none of this to offer. It is not a port.
    If Murcia continues with the plan to divert port business away from Cartagena to Almeria it would obviously pay Cartagena to join with neighbouring towns to become a separate region with total control over its own port and affairs. I know some people in local politics who are already talking to other mayors with this end in view.
    Cartagena is 45 km drive away Murcia city, Almería more than 200 km.
    Ostia was located 40 km drive away Rome, for example... because Rome was inland as Murcia.

    I repeat to you, the name of the Community is "Comunidad Autónoma de la Región de Murcia". Do you know to read?
    Región............................... Regnum, regna........... Kingdom
    Región de Murcia .............Murcia Regnum.......... Murcia Kingdom

    Cartagena was never a Kingdom on history. Only a nicely city nearby Mediterranean coast with a interesting ancient past like others in Spain, for example Tarragona or Sagunto. Sagunto isn't the capital of Valencia Community, right ? How old is Sagunto? The same that Cartagena... more than 2,000 years old. The capital is Valencia city...

    About a new "region", "community" or maybe "province" in Cartagena. This is a nonsense topic, I repeat to you. How many cities or regions in Spain can say the same that Cartagena people ? Do you know what is the problem in Condado de Treviño, León, Gijón, Jerez or Alcalá de Henares today ? Ufff..., it's stupid talk more about this nonsense topic. Cartagena's cantonalist militants are fascist and criminals , because they want to broke the rules... as in 1870. Do you know what supposed Cantón de Cartagena in 19th century ? One of the worse crime against Spain. All people defending today the ideas of Cantón de Cartagena are criminals and must be in prison, because Cantón de Cartagena was military rebellion, one of the worse crime in Spanish Laws. Don't forget, please....

    Finally, if you talk about Murcia city in your posts .... you should respect the "city of seven crowns ", because Murcia city is the only one in Spain with this royal honour.

    Good Lucky again...
    Last edited by Dr.T; December 11th, 2010 at 07:03 AM.

  9. #1134
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    Quote Originally Posted by fionapitt-kethley View Post
    I think people first became aware of the problem in Cartagena with this article http://www.7nova.es/articulos/denunc...it_murcia.html
    The plan in the map quite clearly bypasses Cartagena after going through Murcia.
    Many times you reminds to me my Russian friends... hahaha

    You type like a politician, but ZAL is a infraestructure to develop the trade.
    What should be the best location ? The future users will be Murcia's businessmen and theirs companies. They say the right location is Murcia.

    If you don't like Democracy then you can say: ' Murcia is stealing to Cartagena ',... like the fascists demonstration on Cartagena Streets last December 9th.
    Democracy is respect to the majority in the Parliament... If you feel the need to review our political system then you should stand for elections.... maybe you would be a good mayor for Cartagena city hahaha

    I'd like remind to you... that the fascist meeting on Cartagena Port Authority was a great failure, as only 52 person responded to the call. Why ? Everybody in Cartagena is so tired of fascists... you know, they only say the same forever: Murcia guilty, Murcia steal to Cartagena, Cartagena needs a province.... blah, blah, blah

    Bye.

  10. #1135

  11. #1136

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    Quote Originally Posted by fionapitt-kethley View Post
    Cartagena has been a port for 3000 years. Murcia is 50kms inland. I don´t think people object to Murcia picking up a little business via a transport hub. It is the plan to direct that business on to Almeria ports rather than Cartagena that has roused much anger. Cartagena has huge expertise regarding the sea. Apart from the big container ports in the areas of Santa Lucia and Escombreras that do business with most of the world there is a thriving shipbuilders, Navantia, that builds all the submarines for the Spanish navy and Malaysia and repairs luxury yachts. Cartagena has been used throughout history as a port because of the deep water nearby that allows huge ships to visit. This allows huge cruise ships like the Queen Elizabeth 11 to stop here. Murcia has none of this to offer. It is not a port.
    If Murcia continues with the plan to divert port business away from Cartagena to Almeria it would obviously pay Cartagena to join with neighbouring towns to become a separate region with total control over its own port and affairs. I know some people in local politics who are already talking to other mayors with this end in view.
    The foundation of the city of Murcia, its history, customs, etc, has nothing to do with Cartagena. Ground services and investment demand for historical reasons, it isn't just a lame excuse that has been used at other times in the history of our country, and always on nationalist issues. The attitude of people who intended to mislead the public to win votes, is simply deplorable.

    Regarding the creation of a region or independent territorial entity, we must remember that the "Campo de Cartagena" only been Fuente Alamo and La Union. Municipalities such as San Pedro del Pinatar, San Javier, Los Alcazares, were former municipality of Murcia until relatively recently, when they were constituted as independent municipal entities. So I think that the three municipalities as independent region would be an absurdity.

    NOTE (SPA): Para Aenobarbo - La utilización del término "fascista", ha sido utilizada por mi parte para definir no al grupo de gente que defiende sus intereses con más o menos acierto, sino al grupo de gente que promueve el odio desde una visión nacionalista reaccionaria y recalcitrante, por único interes particular. De todas formas, si en algo no he estado acertado, aceptaré cualquier corrección por tu parte en lo que señales oportuno. Gracias por participar.

  12. #1137

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    I Can't talk about the ZAL's, Dr.T.

    spa. Yo la zona de Cartagena no la conozco, ni conozco el puerto de escombreras ni la gran mayoria de datos que has dado anteriormente. Yo me dedico más al tema de carreteras.
    Por ello, y despues de leer las opiniones de Cartageneros, Murcianos y la tuya, ni puedo, ni debo opinar sobre un tema que en primer lugar desconozco y en segundo lugar no me compete.
    Lo unico que voy a decir es que, bajo mi punto de vista, lo que los municipios con nucleos urbanos con una gran historia (vamos a dejarlo así) reclaman es una mayor descentralización de proyectos y beneficios que estos acarrean.
    Me explico.
    Por logica (y desde un punto de vista de idea feliz, y lo digo así pues no voy a entrar en su viabilidad) lo que deberia hacer FERRMED es una linea que pase por el puerto, o lo mas cerca posible al puerto de Cartagena y escombreras, y ser al reves lo del ZAL, es decir, que la aduana estuviera en cartagena y fuera el ZAL de Murcia el que conectara a este.
    Pero como ya te he dicho es idea feliz y sin tener en cuenta nada de cuanto tu has dicho en tu post.

    Lo unico que un cartagenero vé, bajo mi punto de vista, es que cada cosa que tiene cartagena para su desarrollo, es absorvida por Murcia en su propio municipio.
    Es lo que yo veo desde fuera. No se si es así y me da igual, solo es mi opinión.

    y creo que para la tonteria de explicación ya es bastante largo esto. Un saludo.


    edito. Por cierto, Dr T, y esto no es opinión, solo un dato objetivo. Hablas de Sagunto, de Toledo y demás pero no hablas de otras ciudades como por ejemplo, Mérida.

  13. #1138

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    Siempre que te leo Dr_T me ilusiona ver los proyectos que nos comentas para nuestra querida Murcia, pero estas ultimas paginas la verdad es que me has decepcionado bastante, en especial esto que has escrito.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.T View Post
    La primera radicaría en el angosto paso en la zona entre Sucina y Balsicas. Como se puede ver en el plano que subo, la reserva de suelo para el trazado del AVE (al que habría que unir ahora una vía de mercancías) pasa entre medias de varios golf resort previstos y, en algún caso, en parte ya ejecutados en esa zona (PW Hac. Riquelme, Peinsa-La Tercia, Peraleja Golf, Masa-Sierra Golf,... entre otros). No parece lo más recomendable meter una vía de mercancías de tráfico pesado por este corredor que amplie lo ya existente. Gran parte del tráfico de mercancías es nocturno, lo que generaría molestias a los nuevos residentes en el área, que no mirarían con agrado tener que ver pasar por delante de sus casas, al oscurecer, grandes convoyes cargados de sustancias peligrosas. Los daños que generaría para los promotores serían considerables y sería un problema grave para los desarrollos residenciales futuros de esos suelos. Cuando ese suelo se sectorizó por el Ayuntamiento de Murcia no se presentaron alegaciones de la EPC, ni de otros Ayuntamientos o instituciones públicas, para que allí se hiciera una reserva de suelo para un sistema general ferroviario de ese tipo.
    Parece que te preocupa mucho las molestias que esta red de ferrocarril pueda causar en los residentes de estos resort, pero no te importa nada las molestias de tus vecinos de los barrios de Murcia a los que les pueda afectar, además tengo entendido que el FERRMED tiene una normativa interna para esquivar zonas con una alta concentración urbana, como puede ser Murcia, no le ve mucho sentido a lo que defiendes, veo normal el razonamiento de muchos cartageneros en defender que esta vía pase por la zona del campo de Cartagena, sobre todo por el sur de carrascoy, además por lo que te leo, seguramente a ti no te va a afectar, viviendo en la manga.

  14. #1139

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    Lestat: It is very difficult for me to think that any discussion forums worth the adjectives poured over some of Cartagena and other forum members. If you believe that they deserve, which is necessary to resolve the issue with them personally, not publicly.

    Someone has to begin to moderate the debate and stop this escalation of bad words. People from Cartagena are very proud of the history of their city and that's probably, at times, may condition its analysis of reality. But it's good, is good for the discussion that there are those who defend his own even if it does so romantic.

    Dr.T: of course we will taste that "caldero" when you come here, it will be a pleasure, and the way we do the usual round of these buildings in slow progress we have in Cartagena. We already talked about its structure and now we have to comment on the facade of the Auditorium.

  15. #1140

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    Alberto - No vivo en La Manga. Vivo en Santa Lucia en Cartagena

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