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Thread: Russia & Georgia - the Road to War

  1. #91


    Thank you for the link.
    Are you convinced that the "usual USA State Georgia inhabitants" are confused as to the location of Russian tanks?

  2. #92


    I don't mean everyone there "confused as to the location of Russian tanks", but some kind of misunderstanding, no doubt, is possible.

  3. #93


    In your opinion, what percentage of the Georgia USA population is convinced that Russian tanks are maneuvering in their state?

  4. #94


    I don't think it's appropriate to talk about any percentage. Individual cases of rumour which can't be permanent.

  5. #95


    Russia May Focus on Pro-U.S. Ukraine After Georgia (Update5)

    By Henry Meyer
    Aug. 13 (Bloomberg)
    -- Now that Russia has humiliated Georgia with a punishing military offensive, it may shift its attention to reining in pro-Western Ukraine, another American ally in the former Soviet Union.

    Moving to counter any threat, Ukraine President Viktor Yushchenko today restricted the movement of Russia's Black Sea fleet, based in the Ukrainian port of Sevastopol, citing national security. The Foreign Ministry in Moscow denounced the decision as a ``serious, new anti-Russian step.''

    Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's first order of business in confronting Ukraine likely will be to try to thwart its bid to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

    ``We still don't know who's next,'' said former Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze, who was foreign minister under the last Soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbachev, who helped end the Cold War. ``Ukraine most likely,'' because of its Russian- speaking population and naval base in the Crimea, Shevardnadze said in an interview today.

    The U.S. has long seen Georgia and Ukraine as counterweights to Russia's influence in the region. Opposition leaders in the two countries came to power after U.S.-backed popular protests in 2003 and 2004. Their ascension advanced an American strategy that seeks to expand NATO to include both countries and secure energy routes from the Caspian Sea that bypass Russia. The BP Plc-led Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline to Turkey runs through Georgia.

    Policy in Doubt

    The future effectiveness of that policy is now in doubt, with Georgia's U.S.-educated president, Mikheil Saakashvili, 40, weakened by a five-day blitz that his American patrons were powerless to halt.

    Medvedev, 42, and Putin, 56, say Russia began the offensive in response to a drive by Georgia to restore control over the breakaway region of South Ossetia. Now Russia has ousted Georgian forces from there and from Abkhazia, another separatist region, and destroyed much of the central government's military.

    ``Georgia will be enormously more careful in its actions in the future, and much less confident of its relationship with the United States,'' U.S.-based geopolitical advisory group Stratfor said in a research note.

    NATO is scheduled to review the two countries' bids to join the Western military alliance in December. NATO leaders in April promised Ukraine and Georgia eventual membership while declining them fast-track status. Russia, which has also denounced U.S. plans to station missile defense sites in former Soviet satellites Poland and the Czech Republic, says the expansion of the Cold War-era alliance to its borders is a security threat.

    `Similar Fate'

    NATO should affirm the potential of Georgia and Ukraine to become alliance members in the face of Russia's incursion into Georgia, senior U.S. officials said yesterday in Washington.

    ``Russia may find it convenient to raise the level of tension with Ukraine in the run-up to the December NATO review,'' Citigroup Inc.'s London-based David Lubin and Ali Al- Eyd wrote in a note to clients. ``If the conflict with Russia decelerates or reverses Georgia's integration with the West, a similar fate could also affect Ukraine.''

    Ukraine, a country of 46 million people that's almost as big as France, has a large Russian-speaking population in the south and east that opposes NATO entry and looks to Moscow. Russian officials warn that if Yushchenko pushes Ukraine into NATO, the nation may split in two. Russia has made its displeasure with Ukraine clear, temporarily cutting off gas supplies to the country 2 1/2 years ago and reducing deliveries last March.

    Show of Solidarity

    Yushchenko, 54, yesterday flew to the Georgian capital Tbilisi to show solidarity with Saakashvili along with the leaders of four ex-Communist eastern European nations that joined NATO as a bulwark against Russia.

    Today, he cited national security needs when he insisted Russia's Black Sea fleet coordinate its movements with Ukranian authorities. Russia has leased the port since 1991, and ships from there took part in hostilities against Georgia.

    ``The previous liberalized regime for Russian fleet movements gave the opportunity for Russia to cross Ukrainian state borders and to move across the Ukrainian part of the Black Sea without any control,'' Yushchenko said in a decree, published on his Web site.

    `A Warning'

    The military operation in Georgia will serve ``as a warning'' to Ukraine that it should desist from petitioning for NATO entry, said Janusz Bugajski, director of the New European Democracies Project at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. ``Otherwise, Moscow may intervene to protect the allegedly threatened interests of the Russian population.''

    Russian Emergency Minister Sergei Shoigu today rounded on Ukraine for its public support of Georgia in the conflict.

    ``One week before these events, we send a column of humanitarian aid to Ukraine to help flood victims and the next we find they're offering military aid, arms for the destruction of civilians,'' Shoigu told reporters in Moscow.

    Germany and France opposed NATO entry for Georgia, a country of 4.6 million people that is almost as big as the U.S. state of South Carolina, and Ukraine because of the Georgian separatist disputes and opposition to membership among some Ukrainians. They now will feel their concerns have been justified, said Cliff Kupchan of New-York based Eurasia Group, a political risk consulting firm.

    NATO Membership

    ``Considering both European reticence and possible fears about Ukraine, I think it is very much on the slow track,'' he said, referring to NATO membership for both states.

    The assault by Russian artillery, tanks and bombers inflicted significant damage on Georgia's armed forces, which last month increased their size to 37,000 soldiers. Russia's military has 1.13 million personnel. The U.S. trained and equipped Georgia's military and in 2006 approved almost $300 million in aid over five years.

    Ukraine has about 214,000 soldiers, which include 84,000 paramilitary troops, according to the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies.

    ``A substantial part of our military power has been destroyed,'' said Georgian National Security Council chief Kakha Lomaia. ``However, we did preserve the core of our army, and have managed to regroup it close to the capital.''

    An airbase in Senaki was destroyed and three Georgian ships were blown up in the Black Sea port of Poti, he said.

    Base Bombed

    A month ago, about 1,000 U.S. soldiers joined 600 Georgians and 100 from Ukraine, Azerbaijan and Armenia in joint exercises at the Vaziani military base near Tbilisi. Russia repeatedly bombed the base during this month's war.

    ``The American role in the region has been weakened,'' Jan Techau, a European and security affairs analyst at the German Council on Foreign Relations in Berlin, said in an interview. ``It's a reassertion of Russia's dominant role in the region.''

    Ian Hague, a Bank of Georgia board member and fund manager with $1.8 billion in the former Soviet Union, said the attack on Georgia discouraged Western investments in energy infrastructure by raising the risk premium.

    ``It's somewhat reminiscent, in 1939, when Stalin attacked Finland,'' former U.S. national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski told Bloomberg Television. ``I think this kind of confrontation is the best kind of answer as to why they are seeking to be members of NATO.''

    To contact the reporter on this story: Henry Meyer in Moscow at
    Last Updated: August 13, 2008 14:05 EDT

  6. #96
    Senior Member
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    I can see Stuy Town

    Default Alleged atrocities in South Ossetia

    August 14, 2008
    Bush Sends Aid to Georgia as Russians Occupy a City


    Full article:


    Meanwhile, investigators began to look into allegations of atrocities committed in the separatist enclave of South Ossetia, where the war erupted on Aug. 8. Human Rights Watch reported that researchers witnessed “terrifying scenes of destruction” in four deserted ethnic Georgian villages, and said they the villages had been looted and burned by South Ossetian militias.

    Anna Neistat, one of the researchers, said by telephone from Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, that they had found no evidence so far to substantiate Russian claims of widespread brutality by Georgian troops.

    Human Rights Watch has been able to confirm fewer than 100 deaths — a far cry from the death toll of 2,000 regularly cited by Moscow.
    “If the Russian government continues to claim that 2,000 people were killed as the result of the conflict, it’s time to provide some evidence, it’s time to provide some data, name, age, gender, the circumstances of death,” Ms. Neistat said.


    Human Rights Watch is also part of this Mass Media Conspiracy, right?

  7. #97


    100 is less then population of one house. Look at the photos. Do you see only one sole destroyed house?

  8. #98
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Sep 2003


    Both numbers are probably not right.

    But 2000 is unproven and 100 is not finished yet.

    Who are we supposed to believe?

  9. #99
    Senior Member
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    ^ Exactly.

    The follow up question for those newspapers and journalists not involved with the "mass media conspiracy" should be: where did the number 2000 come from? The 2000 deaths are widely cited as a pretense for a full Russian Invasion.

    But is this 2000 number just propaganda? Is this the Russian version of Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction?

  10. #100

  11. #101


    Quote Originally Posted by Fahzee View Post
    But is this 2000 number just propaganda? Is this the Russian version of Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction?
    People don't usually die in convenient multiples of 1000.
    Last edited by 195Broadway; August 14th, 2008 at 10:50 AM. Reason: quote

  12. #102


    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenious View Post
    Perhaps we could hire some Russians....

  13. #103
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Sep 2003


    They did on that one episode of Star Trek!

  14. #104


    Let's drop this childish nonsense of Georgia as US State and also a country.

    Both sides obviously had exaggerated claims.

    The question is - what are casualty numbers that would justify shelling civilian population with rockets? Is 100 dead is acceptable?

    Should Bush administration show a concern about 100 dead?

  15. #105


    US supplied military equipment to Georgia, and Georgia used it in the assault that killed scores of civilians. The movie "Lord of War" comes to mind where Nicolas Cage contemplates on the morality of selling guns.

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