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Thread: Censorship

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by stache View Post
    Well maybe that's the end of that.
    Yes that's the end of this.

    Ive enjoyed being on this forum since 2003, talking about real estate and politics(two of my passions in life) and also being able to debate people of different backgrounds, beliefs and places. Ive also had the chance to meet a few of you in person and have enjoyed that as well.

  2. #62
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    kliq6: I urge you to share with Zip or others the crux of the particular edit problem. Do it via a PM (if you like) to clear this up.

    No one here wants content of posts to be altered without very good reason.

    You're too valuable a forum member to lose over a misunderstanding.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by kliq6 View Post
    ........I respect what each person says even if I don't agree with it. Thats what free speech is!

    Its simple to me, that's the forums rules and I respect that but it does not mean I have continue taking part in it.
    Your continued contributions to this forum are highly valued; particularly since you have been posting here since the get-go.

    Just for the record: as a mod I mainly spend my time here deleting spam, and never (intentionally) changed the wording or deleted the post of a forum member.

    If there is some particular case where your "opinions and ideas" have been deleted or rewritten; by all means, make your complaint known.

    Since this is not Olympic Games in China we do not have the option of relegating you to the 'official Protest Zone'.

    http://blogs.wsj.com/chinajournal/20...t-games-begin/

  4. #64

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    Let's not be carried away and maintain a perspective on the whole issue. Kliq6, how many of your 2.5 thousand posts were changed or reworded by a moderator that you find unacceptable?

    The purpose of this forum is a free discussion - within a certain framework of rules intended to make this free discussion civilized and effective.

    I urge anyone who feels that their free expression was compromised by moderator actions to bring this to my attention.

    And another point I would like to mention is that I find all forum rules to be reasonable and serving a useful purpose, and for the benefit of every forum member. I would prefer that forum members who are unhappy about some aspects of forum life participate in a discussion on how to improve the forum, instead of leaving.

  5. #65

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    I agree that moderators should not bowdlerize posts. Total deletion is better.

  6. #66

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    ^
    The problem sometimes arises that the posts are long, and only one passage is objectionable; a moderator may not get to it until many responses are made, and deleting it would disrupt the flow of the thread.

  7. #67

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    I would like to make some clarifications about the "freedom of expression" phrase thrown around lately.

    There are some who insist that moderators should not infringe on the sanctity of a post, and absolutely no moderation should be done. What that would mean for this forum? Should we allow spam posts in order not to infringe on spammers freedom of speech? Should we allow members insult other members in order not to repress personal freedoms? Should we allow posting soft-porn pictures just because some might enjoy them? Should we allow trolling, incoherent posts, threads in wrong sections, disregard for spelling and grammar - does anyone seriously thinks that your experience would be better if this is allowed? Calling this freedom of expression seriously cheapens the meaning of freedom.

  8. #68
    Moderator NYatKNIGHT's Avatar
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    Last time I deleted something was an unrelated, unnecessary, offensive remark added at the end of an otherwise extensive and cohesive post, just to prod someone else. Without that one sentence, his point was made, the thread didn't spiral downward in petty arguments and it remained on topic. I sent a PM telling that member what I deleted and why. He had no objection and apologized. Had I deleted the entire post it would have put a strange gap in the conversation and brought attention where it wasn't needed. So every case is different, and no, you shouldn't make a general rule either way.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edward View Post
    I would like to make some clarifications about the "freedom of expression" phrase thrown around lately.

    There are some who insist that moderators should not infringe on the sanctity of a post, and absolutely no moderation should be done. What that would mean for this forum? Should we allow spam posts in order not to infringe on spammers freedom of speech? Should we allow members insult other members in order not to repress personal freedoms? Should we allow posting soft-porn pictures just because some might enjoy them? Should we allow trolling, incoherent posts, threads in wrong sections, disregard for spelling and grammar - does anyone seriously thinks that your experience would be better if this is allowed? Calling this freedom of expression seriously cheapens the meaning of freedom.
    This posting is just to compelling not to respond to.

    Should we allow spam posts in order not to infringe on spammers freedom of speech? YES, if at that point you dont want them ban that member since your moderators.

    Should we allow members insult other members in order not to repress personal freedoms? YES, as long as its not hateful, racist, threatening, or provoking violence.

    Should we allow posting soft-porn pictures just because some might enjoy them? YES, we are all adults here correct????

    Should we allow trolling, incoherent posts, threads in wrong sections, disregard for spelling and grammar - YES, why care if someone misspells or makes him or herself look stupid, its on them not you to worry about.

  10. #70

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    I have no problem with the system the way it is now.
    I for one don't come to this site to look at porn, spam,
    or to wade through pages of irrelevant off topic bickering-
    but that's just me.
    The moderators job is a thankless one, and as long as it's not abused, appreciated by this poster.
    we are all adults here correct????
    Not necessarily

  11. #71
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    So long as you can bring it to the attension of the board and the people here, I see no real problem.

    Deletion of posts does not work well either, as evidenced by our own resident (still?) Anglophobe. Deletion of his outright insulting condescending posts only brought more. Exception? Probably not.

    As for line-editing, that is tricky, replacing some words with euphamisms, "crap" or even **** might be appropriate in some contexts, and deletion of any line if its sole purpose was to start a fight:

    "But I wouldn't expect anything intelligent from you, so lets just leave it as it is...."

    Etc etc, have NO place here.

    Where it goes borderline is where we have posts about artistic opinion, or political positions where one poster inferrs the others lack of knowledge, taste, or other qualities that not only refute their position, but insult them and infer a lack of qualification for any further rejoinder.

    Is this calling them stupid outright? No. But you see shades of it throught almost any forum, and through many threads here.



    I suggest that any further line editing done by moderators be noted and have the OP notified with the exact text that was removed/changed. Depending on the severity, there should be a courtesy delay/lag between announcement and actual deletion, and the original should always be kept (JIC).

    If the OP wants to remove the post after being told what is up and it has been confirmed by the other mods, then they have the right to.

    It is all a matter of making sure that peopel get some respect and some time to be able to correct their transgressions themselves.

    I think that will do more than many of the all-or-nothing permutations that are being bandied about.

    100% satisfaction? Never, but hopefully this will keep a few more people from feeling too dominated, demeaned and or disrespected.

    D!

  12. #72
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Sounds like NinjaH might offering up services to become a MOD

  13. #73

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    Geez. Way too complicated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
    As for line-editing, that is tricky, replacing some words with euphamisms, "crap" or even **** might be appropriate in some contexts, and deletion of any line if its sole purpose was to start a fight:
    I don't advise replacing words or phrases under any circumstances. I'm not about to get into someone's head and figure out what they might have said. Besides, it's too much work.

    If the entire post is objectionable, I delete the post.

    If there is a stand alone sentence that if removed, doesn't interfere with the post, I delete the sentence.

    If it's a word embedded in in a sentence that can't be removed, I'll post a reply warning the poster. If he wants, he can edit it himself.

    Sometimes I leave the objectionable passage in with a warning, if I think that an argument is getting too heated. It serves to calm things down.

    Where it goes borderline is where we have posts about artistic opinion, or political positions where one poster inferrs the others lack of knowledge, taste, or other qualities that not only refute their position, but insult them and infer a lack of qualification for any further rejoinder.

    Is this calling them stupid outright? No. But you see shades of it throught almost any forum, and through many threads here.
    No editing is ever needed in "borderline" posts. A PM is sufficient.

    Most of my edits are for post structure.

  14. #74
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Zip, I am not talking about you specifically, but in general.

    I am just trying to find a middle ground. If you think that that is too much, you can continue to be less imposing, but the thing is sometimes some mods go further (for whatever reason).

    I am pretty much just skipping a stone across the water to see where the ripples go. If anything jives with what you agree with, then maybe that is something we (meaning all of youse mugz) should persue.


    I think the key here is also making sure that ANY moderation is removed from personal interest. I think this has been pretty good so far. But if someone like GT comes in and starts calling a mod a fascist idiot for deleting one of his hateful OT posts, it may be good for that (known) mod to hand off to someone a little less in constant contact with the person. Get a bit less risk of an emotional connection.

    But then again, maybe not. Someone not familiar with Fab or political taglines did not recognise his reversed line that this whole thread got started about. So... I don't know.


    I am getting all feklempt.

    Tawlk amongst yeselves.....

    Here's a topic for you: Indian food and its impact on the National Debt.

    Discuss.....


  15. #75

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    Actually, I was speaking for all moderators.

    We shouldn't be rearranging any posts for any reason except formatting [pictures too big, fixing broken links, etc]. There should be little ambiguity; the violation should be clearly evident, and easily edited [removal only].

    As for moderators getting too personally involved with a particular situation, we do ask each other for opinion and guidance.

    In my opinion, the incident that generated this thread was a moderation mistake, and has been resolved.

    As for the second discussion about freedom of speech in this forum, I reject the opinions expressed in post #69. When everybody yells, no one can speak.

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