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Thread: Amanda Knox gets 26 Years

  1. #1486

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    Eddhead: "The fact that they have an opinion and that some find it compelling does not mean people are advocating for them to be actively involved in the case"

    That's all fine and dandy but I hope you know that no one here cares about their opinion.

    Occasionally when some con in the US is ready for the electric chair or lethal injection, some of the advocacy groups in Europe speak up about the fairness of it all... or bring in experts who are convinced of their innocence... the miscarraige of justice ...or whatever. Especially when it's done to the dirt poor... to the mentally retarded... that sort of thing.

    But no matter how much these groups raise their voices, it falls on deaf ears. You really think Americans care what experts from another country have to say?

    Well, it's the same over here.

  2. #1487

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    This situation is so hopelessly entangled that no one will ever sort out the truth of it.

    Let the defendants out. If they're not guilty, some degree of justice will have been done.

    If they are guilty, two and a half years is probably punishment enough for the couple; time to get on with life. Lesson learned by the defendants, and I doubt there will be any repetition of the crime. Isn't the purpose of punishment said to be repentance?

    The issue isn't justice, it's common sense.

  3. #1488

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    Quote Originally Posted by ablarc View Post
    This situation is so hopelessly entangled that no one will ever sort out the truth of it.

    Let the defendants out. If they're not guilty, some degree of justice will have been done.

    If they are guilty, two and a half years is probably punishment enough for the couple; time to get on with life. Lesson learned by the defendants, and I doubt there will be any repetition of the crime. Isn't the purpose of punishment said to be repentance?

    The issue isn't justice, it's common sense.
    Not following you. If they are guilty, 2 and a half years is enough? For murder?

  4. #1489
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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    So the defense will simply (?) use the Idaho experts to tear apart / bring into question the DNA testing procedures -- not the results -- that the prosecution has presented?
    I don't know, but if the testing procedures were bogus, doesn't that extend to mean that the results are too?

  5. #1490

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabrizio View Post
    Eddhead: "The fact that they have an opinion and that some find it compelling does not mean people are advocating for them to be actively involved in the case"

    That's all fine and dandy but I hope you know that no one here cares about their opinion.

    Occasionally when some con in the US is ready for the electric chair or lethal injection, some of the advocacy groups in Europe speak up about the fairness of it all... or bring in experts who are convinced of their innocence... the miscarraige of justice ...or whatever. Especially when it's done to the dirt poor... to the mentally retarded... that sort of thing.

    But no matter how much these groups raise their voices, it falls on deaf ears. You really think Americans care what experts from another country have to say?

    Well, it's the same over here.
    We might care about what someone from another country had to say if they have credentials and a respected reputation. Not making an equivalency here, just saying we would not rule it out just because they are not from the US.

    On the subject of Dr. Hampikian, I don't really get what the whole outrage is about him from the pro-guilt side. He is an expert on DNA, with legitimate credentials and experience, and he is director of a group that advocates for defendants in trials where they think the DNA was handled incorrectly. He has looked at this case, and he thinks Knox is innocent, and that the DNA analysis was flawed. It is one person/groups opinion, that can be weighed with the rest. He is also consulting with the defense team, to explain to them what problems they should bring attention to with the DNA testing. He is not testifying in court, I imagine because of what you said -- that an Italian jury does not care what he says.

    To me, if I thought Amanda was guilty, I would read what this guy has to say, and if it makes no sense, disagree with it. The fact that, instead of refuting his analysis, pro-guilt folks attack him for taking on a case outside Idaho, or make snide remarks about him being friends with Amanda's family, is an indication to me that they don't have a good argument to his analysis.

    Note: Not including Fabrizio in my last point about the pro-guilt folks. He has not made the points I listed.

    PS -- Idaho is quite close to Seattle, as the crow flies. It is not really strange for this group to have taken notice of the case.

  6. #1491

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougm View Post
    Not following you. If they are guilty, 2 and a half years is enough? For murder?
    Not, I suppose, if the purpose of punishment is revenge.

    But revenge for what? Is guilt here proved beyond reasonable doubt? Can it ever be?

  7. #1492
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    Occasionally when some con in the US is ready for the electric chair or lethal injection, some of the advocacy groups in Europe speak up about the fairness of it all... or bring in experts who are convinced of their innocence... the miscarraige of justice ...or whatever. Especially when it's done to the dirt poor... to the mentally retarded... that sort of thing.

    But no matter how much these groups raise their voices, it falls on deaf ears. You really think Americans care what experts from another country have to say?
    Apples and oranges. The first paragraph describes moral beliefs. People's feelings. The conclusions of the scientists at the Idaho Innocence Project are not sociological opinions, they are determinations based on scientific protocol and examination. We get the point about people over there not caring...the false comparison was totally unnecessary and silly. What else is new.

  8. #1493

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    ^ Right, because if a European DNA expert posted their findings about a DNA evidence charge for one of the 3,260 people currently on Death Row, Americans would sit up and listen. Tell us about it.

    Dougm re: For murder:

    there is also the charge of blaming Lumumba and not saying a word about it while he sat in jail for 2 weeks. In Italy it's a huge crime worth years in prison.
    Last edited by Fabrizio; May 26th, 2011 at 01:09 PM.

  9. #1494

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    You can't say Guede used or had the money unless some of it is recovered from him.

    However, that money was missing, and someone's DNA was on Kercher's purse (that you wouldn't expect to find there) is strong evidence for a burglary.

    I've read that there there were money issues between Kercher and Knox, but only as speculation outside the courtroom. Was this ever brought into evidence? How supported?

    I've also read that Knox had a substantial bank account, and we know she had a job. Guede had little or no money, and a police record for theft. Unemployed?
    300 euros were missing and Rudy's DNA was found on the opening of the purse. Good enough for me.

    I think the idea that they were arguing over money is one of many myths introduced by those believing in guilt, I haven't seen it in the court records.

    What is more relevant is that it was the end of the month and Rudy knew that someone might have rent money from a shared house (as she in fact did).

    It is a fact that she - AK- had a bank account with several thousand dollars.

    Another myth is that she was fired by Patrick. Not true. Otherwise why would she say "see you later"? She later quit.

    Guede was unemployed and couldn't pay rent, he was about to be evicted and had been disowned by his "adoptive" family.

    I don't think he was actually charged with theft, inexplicably.

    Here is a pretty significant political development related to the case in Italy.

  10. #1495

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabrizio View Post
    Occasionally when some con in the US is ready for the electric chair or lethal injection, some of the advocacy groups in Europe speak up about the fairness of it all... or bring in experts who are convinced of their innocence... the miscarraige of justice ...or whatever. Especially when it's done to the dirt poor... to the mentally retarded... that sort of thing.

    But no matter how much these groups raise their voices, it falls on deaf ears. You really think Americans care what experts from another country have to say?

    Well, it's the same over here.
    I think you are talking about two different issues. If the US was going to execute someone, poor or retarded or whatever, there are typically plenty of groups in the US that would be protesting, especially if the evidence was lacking. Appeals on capital punishment cases go on for years and years, so there is ample time for counter arguments to be heard.

    If someone came in from Europe with some new evidence or an internationally accepted way to, for example, analyze the DNA that was not used in the case here, and it can be shown that the person did not really commit the crime, I don't know why fair minded people here would not be interested.

    On the other hand, if the European group is just arguing that the death penalty is cruel and the US should not be executing the person because they are poor, and can't afford the best lawyers, for example, that is an argument against US law, which has been debated, and is different for each state. If the group wants to argue the case in court, they can contact the defendant's attorneys, like has happened here, and they can decide if they want to use the points raised by that group as an argument in court, but if that issue has already been examined and rejected, they are going to be out of luck, as they will be in Italy if the court rejects the arguments. They can say the law is immoral, but the law is the law, until it is changed. So that, I think, would not be listened to at all.

  11. #1496

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabrizio View Post
    ^ Right, because if a European DNA expert posted their findings about a DNA evidence charge for one of the 3,260 people currently on Death Row, Americans would sit up and listen. Tell us about it.

    Dougm re: For murder:

    there is also the charge of blaming Lumumba and not saying a word about it while he sat in jail for 2 weeks. In Italy it's a huge crime worth years in prison.
    I think it is debatable that she "blamed" Lumumba, but I agree that is what the court found. And she should have recanted it after they were both in jail, but I think that she had lost trust in the authorities at that point, and was assuming that when the actual evidence was examined, they all would be set free. Not a good assumption.

  12. #1497

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    To clarify, courts from all nations prefer to have experts from their own country. Hampikian will not appear in court, however he is working as an advisor to the defence team (it is their right to get consultation from whereever they want) and they have asked for the primary data per his advice, at least in part. In response the judge got an outside opinion. The experts from Rome asked for the data weeks ago, the judge told Stefanoni to provide it weeks ago, she made an excuse, and then two days before last weeks hearing she produced it. The experts now said we need 40 more days to look at it, which the judge gave them. We don't know if the defense now has the data as well. So far, everything is going well. Italy should find their own internal experts to double check things (not Stefanoni's boss, as was done by Massei, or some fruit loop like Garofano). So far, we think the Rome outside experts are probably just as qualified as Hampikian. What will they look for? they can re check calculations, or look if there are primary data to back up the final results. Or look for evidence of contamination, maybe shown through control tests. Or other people's dna showing up in places that don't make sense. Who knows? I'm sure we'll find out, though, and become more educated about DNA testing in the process. there is no more DNA to be tested though (never was on the knife, if there was on the bra clasp it is now rusted due to improper storage).

  13. #1498

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabrizio View Post
    Eddhead: "The fact that they have an opinion and that some find it compelling does not mean people are advocating for them to be actively involved in the case"

    That's all fine and dandy but I hope you know that no one here cares about their opinion.


    @ Fab - yes I do know that. In fact, that is the point I was trying to make .... poorly I guess.

    My point to Loft was the idaho Group's findings are really irrelvant and unlikely to affect the outcome of this trial. A bunch of bloggers may find them compelling, but that has no bearing on the outcome of the case.

    But that does not mean they are wrong either..
    Last edited by eddhead; May 26th, 2011 at 01:31 PM.

  14. #1499

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chirpy View Post
    To clarify, courts from all nations prefer to have experts from their own country. Hampikian will not appear in court, however he is working as an advisor to the defence team (it is their right to get consultation from whereever they want) and they have asked for the primary data per his advice, at least in part. In response the judge got an outside opinion. The experts from Rome asked for the data weeks ago, the judge told Stefanoni to provide it weeks ago, she made an excuse, and then two days before last weeks hearing she produced it. The experts now said we need 40 more days to look at it, which the judge gave them. We don't know if the defense now has the data as well. So far, everything is going well. Italy should find their own internal experts to double check things (not Stefanoni's boss, as was done by Massei, or some fruit loop like Garofano). So far, we think the Rome outside experts are probably just as qualified as Hampikian. What will they look for? they can re check calculations, or look if there are primary data to back up the final results. Or look for evidence of contamination, maybe shown through control tests. Or other people's dna showing up in places that don't make sense. Who knows? I'm sure we'll find out, though, and become more educated about DNA testing in the process. there is no more DNA to be tested though (never was on the knife, if there was on the bra clasp it is now rusted due to improper storage).
    Yes, and DNA analysis is not exact in the sense that there in one right way to do it, but there are some internationally accepted norms, and definitely some "don't do, because it produces results that are flawed" procedures. From what I have read in analysis from experts who know these standards, Stephanoni violated them on some key pieces of evidence, most specifically the knife. If they are using that evidence to link Knox to the crime, it is only fair that some experts without an agenda for either side take a look at it. In that case, I don't care what country they are from, as long as they have legitimate expertise.

    In the first trial, the defense requested an independent review of the DNA evidence, and the court said no. So now they are doing it.

  15. #1500

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddhead View Post
    @ Fab - yes I do know that. In fact, that is the point I was trying to make .... poorly I guess.

    My point to Loft was the idaho Group's findings are really irrelvant and unlikely to affect the outcome of this trial. A bunch of bloggers may find them compelling, but that has no bearing on the outcome of the case.

    But that does not mean they are wrong either..
    Is this mysterious in some way?

    1) Let's say I am Italian, and I come to the US, and get involved in a murder somehow.
    2) I am accused of the murder
    3) The local police and prosecutors in court say they have evidence against me, and are presenting it in court
    4) Don't I contact family and friends in Italy, and find some people who are experts in that evidence, and have them tell me what to argue?

    Seems logical to me.

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