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Thread: Amanda Knox gets 26 Years

  1. #271

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    But I'm now of the opinion that Amanda Knox is innocent, not only not-guilty.
    Aw, you're just a sucker for a pretty face.

  2. #272

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    Dougm, ease up a bit.

    Cases like this go on all the time, everywhere. This one happens to involve three nationalities, and sex. so coverage is widespread. Trials are screwed up, and appellate courts order new trials.

    Knox and Sollecito are already getting a second chance to present a case. The appeal in Italy is itself a trial de novo.

  3. #273
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Y'all keep talking about and citing the Massei Report.

    A link to the English translation would be helpful.

  4. #274

  5. #275
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougm View Post
    the defense is arguing for additional information and analysis, and the prosecution is trying to avoid it. How any guilty defendants you have heard of would be asking for them to open the handle of the murder knife to see what is inside?
    An excellent point. They must be confident.
    ---

    I can't help but notice that when people who say she's guilty are questioned about the hard facts, they simply can't come up with a logical answer... so they never address the questions at all. End up muttering about overwhelming "circumstantial" something or other.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougm View Post
    See if you would be OK haveing your son or daughter, or yourself, locked up using such bizarre reasoning.
    It really is a nightmare.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Dougm, ease up a bit.
    And here I was thinking, Thank God someone else knowledgeable about the case finally joined the conversation.
    Welcome dougm, another informed voice is always good. I was anticipating an onslaught of pointless old articles from Barbie, posted ad nauseum. Now we've got some variety.

  6. #276

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougm View Post
    I might be the biggest jerk in the world, and rude and uncaring, but unless you have real evidence proving I committed a crime, it is not right to convict me. And I just don't see real evidence here that any other court would have convicted Knox and Sollecito on.

    So I think the key for people who are new to the case is not what you and I say, or what any reporters say, but the actual facts and arguments made by both sides. Read Knox's actual statements to the police, don't just accept it when people say "she confessed". I think you will have a different opinion when you read what was actually said. If you don't, that is your right!
    My early comments on this thread regarding the type/quantity of evidence still stands: for me, the obvious lack of 'physical evidence' renders the guilty verdict a travesty of justice.

    Great commentary, so thanks: but here we are almost two years since my last post on this thread and it seems not much new is being said on this subject. Free Mumia - oh, I mean Amanda.

    http://wirednewyork.com/forum/showth...l=1#post307654

  7. #277

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    Another voice is welcome, but only if we don't get outrage from the pulpit. Pigeonholing people as "pro-guilt" or "pro innocence" doesn't help. I didn't realize that this was a contest and we had to pick sides.

    Nothing we say here will have any bearing in Perugia.

  8. #278

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    Here is the song your friend Barbie is singing now....karma is a Bitch...:-)

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...?cid=tag:all1#

    And now lets take a look at everyone's favorite convicted criminal prosecutor Giuliano Mignini...this is what you guys are defending here?

    http://www.cpj.org/2011/04/journalis...murder-cas.php


    That's right it is not about guilt or innocence...its about facts.
    The facts in this case show two innocent people held in jail 3 1/2 years now for a crime they didn't commit.
    Its been a setup from the beginning led by Megnini and the dirty police of Perugia Italy.



  9. #279

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    Frankz and Dougm. First time posters to WiredNewYork both with attacks on Barbie Nadeau.

    It's a funny coincidence that there are 2 infamous pro-knox campaign bloggers out there named Frank Sfarzo and Doug Bremner. Probably just a coincidence.

    ----------------

    Nadeau coverage of affairs in Italy... her articles about her run-in with Antonio Ricci are excellent (although it would be nice if she'd report what she actually said about him). Her taking on Ricci, her dismay about Italy's press freedom rankings, her objections to aspects of the Knox trial ...should also give credence to her reporting on the Knox case.

    BTW: She believes Knox is guilty.

    Note that above I state: "I'll go with her and Andrea Vogt's reporting, warts and all, as they were the only American reporters actually attending the trial and who speak fluent Italian. Their reporting and character has been picked apart by the pro-Knox bloggers and arm-chair sleuths, but they seem to me to give the most balanced reporting and have the best credentials."

    I don't always agree them 100% and I try to look at their articles with a criticle eye as well: but if you know of better reporting about the Knox case and better credentials please post them. Andrea Vogt, Barbie Nadeau, Rachel Donadio, John Follian... these are American journalists that I read reporting about Italy that IMHO do the best job.

    The CPJ article I'll get back to later. This is the BBC article the letter refers to:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7883286.stm

    I've also posted here on other occasions about the defamation laws here (and in Europe) and what that means. Defamation letters are thrown around here all the time. It a a matter of course. Cases are never tried. The Italian beuracracy sees to that.

    An excellent article about Mignini by Vogt: http://www.seattlepi.com/default/art...312.php#page-1

    -----------

    And it seems that no one caught this from Doug:

    Quote Originally Posted by dougm View Post
    And this quote of yours is the standard talking point of every pro-guilt person who cannot think independently -- look all over the internet, and the drones repeatedly cut and paste this because they have been told to do so by others who also have blinders on:

    "The true source for the findings of what the judges and jury have considered to be true, their reasoning for the conviction, and what happened in court...you will not find from me or the blogs, it is in the Massei Report , a 400 (or so) page summation of the trial (it has been translated into English and can be downloaded)."

    I too, urge people to read the Massei report.
    ----

    The Knife: I agree that the prosecution not wanting to open it is odd and I don't understand their reasoning for that.

    ---

    Circumstantial evidence: because I'm trying to post things here from good sources and my time is limited, give me some time.

    I have posted articles (see links in previous articles) by Nadeau and Vogt that touch on a few:

    The mixed blood that has been attributed to her at the house.

    The cell phone activity: reported here by ABC.: http://abcnews.go.com/International/...7131195&page=1

    ^ The cell phones being turned on early in the morning contradicts their claim of having slept late. And Sollicito claimed he was working at his computer.

    Blaming Lumumba for the murder. He was in jail for 14 days. She had time to right this wrong. If you are not guilty you do not blame others. The fact that she pinned the blame on a black man is suspicious because Guede is also black (and Italy is a country with a small black population).

    All of these things begin to add up and they test her and Sollecito's credibility. They are (because of their testimony) linked together. One adds to the other. Remember too that Knox was not the only roomate: these was Filomena. There was another apartment of students downstairs. Everyone was questioned but only Knox had conficting stories.
    There are plenty more but it takes time to pick through this and I will try to post things later.

    --

    I also want to post these 2 articles by Vogt about the bloody footprints. I'm only posting the links because posting both would be too long.

    It illustrates how this case has gone.... the experts who disagree etc. Note how Vogt ends the 2nd article:

    "Police and prosecutors say one thing, expert witnesses say another. In the end, the judge and jury will either have to decide themselves whom they find more credible, or ask for an independent third-party review of the evidence."

    May 8th 2009: Expert says footprints belong to Knox, ex-boyfriend


    http://www.seattlepi.com/default/art...ox-1303840.php

    September 17th 2009: Expert at Knox trial say bloody footprint didn't belong to her boyfriend

    http://www.seattlepi.com/local/artic...hp?source=mypi
    Last edited by Fabrizio; April 22nd, 2011 at 09:57 AM.

  10. #280
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    from fab's second to last link (May 8th 2009: Expert says footprints belong to Knox, ex-boyfriend):
    "On cross examination, one of Knox's defense team, Rome lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova, questioned the certainty with which the prints could be considered compatible with Knox's foot. He noted that a match with Sollecito and Guede's footprints was excluded, but asked why the luminol print was not compared with the other two female roommates in the house.
    Under cross, Rinaldi also confirmed that luminol, a substance used by forensic police to reveal non-visible traces of blood, also could react to other substances that contain iron, such as fruit juices, chlorophyll or rust, as well as bleach."
    Some excerpts from the last link fab posted:
    Professor Francesco Vinci, director of the Forensics Ballistics Center of the University of Bari, gave evidence largely in conflict with that given by two police print experts who testified for the prosecution in May.

    Vinci testified that he believes the bloody footprint found on a bathmat and previously identified as Sollecito's was a closer match to Rudy Guede, the Ivory coast immigrant already sentenced to 30 years for his role in the crime.

    Later, on cross-examination, he said he could exclude the print's compatibility with Sollecito, but could not say if the small print could have been Knox's or any of the other young women who lived in the house. He also said he believed that the print on the pillowcase found under Kercher's body (which police experts said was a woman's size 37 Asics shoe) was instead a partial print from Guede's shoe.
    ---
    Note how Vogt ends the 2nd article:

    I tried to "note" anything meaningful in Vogt's conclusion that you pointed out. Sounds like a no brainer, I can't figure out why it's so notable.
    Last edited by MidtownGuy; April 22nd, 2011 at 10:51 AM.

  11. #281
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    I have posted articles (see links in previous articles) by Nadeau and Vogt that touch on a few:

    The mixed blood that has been attributed to her at the house.
    Earth to fabrizio: what mixed blood?
    You must not actually mean mixed with Amanda's blood, so I'll take these as weasel words. Who knows what you mean by mixed blood, because what was found was not the two girls' blood mixed.

    If someone has to refute it again, most people would conclude these repeated false statements about "mixed blood" are nothing more than trolling at this point.
    Last edited by MidtownGuy; April 22nd, 2011 at 10:55 AM.

  12. #282

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownGuy View Post
    I tried to "note" anything meaningful in Vogt's conclusion that you pointed out. Sounds like a no brainer, I can't figure out why it's so notable.
    Actually, it is notable...for a lack of understanding of jury deliberations.

    "Police and prosecutors say one thing, expert witnesses say another. In the end, the judge and jury will either have to decide themselves whom they find more credible, or ask for an independent third-party review of the evidence."
    If no clear conclusion can be drawn from evidence, it's reasonable doubt.

  13. #283

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    Mixed blood:


    "In the small bathroom that Knox and Kercher shared, investigators found numerous spots of blood, including on the sink, the toilet, the bidet, the rug, the light-switch and the door jamb. Three of these blood stains – one on the edge of the sink, the one on the drain of the bidet, and one on a Q-tip box - contained the mixed DNA of Kercher and Knox"

    "The significance of the mixed DNA was not explained in court, but in past reports the prosecution has theorized that Knox used that bathroom to wash-up after the murder, and due to a nose-bleed or some other injury, her blood mixed with that of the victim."

    "Knox's defense, however, has mentioned the possibility that it could be menstrual blood or blood from Knox's ear, which she had recently pierced. Knox had taken a shower in that bathroom the morning after the murder, before Kercher's murder had been discovered."

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/...7656872&page=1


    ----


    "Your lawyers agree with the prosecution’s findings that at least one of the spots of Meredith’s blood found in the house where she was killed had your blood mixed with it. Your mother told me that you had your period. Your stepfather told others that your ear piercings were infected. Which was it?"

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...cted-murderer/
    Last edited by Fabrizio; April 22nd, 2011 at 11:47 AM.

  14. #284

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    My point about the Vogt article is that credible experts have conflicting conclusions but in the end the jury and judge decide who to believe. Note that the headlines say Experts "say"... not experts prove.

    It also another example of cool balanced reporting.
    Last edited by Fabrizio; April 22nd, 2011 at 12:13 PM.

  15. #285

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    The point that matters is Vogt's, and the statement quoted shows a lack of understanding of how a jury must weigh evidence in a criminal case. It's a common mistake by those not familiar with the courtroom, not of an experienced reporter.

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