Muslim integration in Europe.

[zupermaus]

^yep, London's also doing something major - currently in plans to build the 'Mega Mosque' for 40,000, and capacity up to 70,000 with surrounding buildings during religious festivals. Its right next to the Olympic site, and the new CBD at Stratford. Its controversial of course, not just the fact it will supplant all the major cathedrals as the religious centre of the city, but mostly due to the increased volume of traffic/ people etc in the area (many of the areas residents, many of whom are Muslim, are against it due to this).

Of course a mega-cathedral is also in the plans for the mostly Anglican African community, so this too may be supplanted in turn.

[Dr.T]

okie dokey ...

Since i started this thread I'm requesting that we get back on track -- which can include discussion of the Grand Mosque or other mosques in Europe (but not so much the other stuff).

Cordoba has an incredible mosque -- the Great Mosque of Cordoba -- which dates back to ~ 785 AD.

When I saw it back in the early 90s I had the place to myself (but then I had all sorts of fantastic places to myself, as I was traveling during the midst of the World Cup and wherever I went -- whether in Italy, Spain or Portugal -- everyone seemed to be sitting in front of a television set).





More photos at the ArchNet Digital Library - Great Mosque of Cordoba

Since 1236 is a Catholic Cathedral. The owner is Catholic Church (Diocese of Córdoba). Muslims are forbidden to pray inside. Today the former Great Mosque of Cordoba and the Cathedral of Santa María (built inside) are a World Heritage Site (UNESCO).

[Dr.T]

^yep, London's also doing something major - currently in plans to build the 'Mega Mosque' for 40,000, and capacity up to 70,000 with surrounding buildings during religious festivals. Its right next to the Olympic site, and the new CBD at Stratford. Its controversial of course, not just the fact it will supplant all the major cathedrals as the religious centre of the city, but mostly due to the increased volume of traffic/ people etc in the area (many of the areas residents, many of whom are Muslim, are against it due to this).

Of course a mega-cathedral is also in the plans for the mostly Anglican African community, so this too may be supplanted in turn.

In Spain there have been problems in building large mosques. The reason is always the same: Muslims in Spain are mostly people from Morocco and Algeria for training low (they often work in greenhouse collecting tomato crops, lettuce or flowers) and many are marginal (dedicated to crime).

The Spanish when the City Council tells them in his district wants to build a mosque, they do not want it because they know that then the district could become a Muslim ghetto.

It's a eternal problem.

[lofter1]

Since 1236 is a Catholic Cathedral. The owner is Catholic Church (Diocese of Córdoba).

I didn't know that. No wonder it was empty when I went there.

[zupermaus]

In London its not so much a problem as its very hard to build any kind of 'ghetto' due to vertiginous house prices and speculating (not for want of trying Im sure Londoners would create them if given half a chance), and traditional mixing of income types in housing - to this day all new developments, even the luxury ones have by law to devote 30-50% of itself to affordable homes. Meanwhile poor rundown areas are now being colonised by the middle classes unable to afford the rip-off prices demanded for in the city.

Also the Muslims in London have relatively low crime rates, even though some are very poor- some areas of the city such as Brick Lane and Whitechapel are some of the poorest, but adversely some of the safest. The word on the street for property buyers keen to get on the ladder is to try and move into areas mixed with traditional Muslim or West African communities, as the prices are cheap and the crime is low - the kind of areas attracting artists and creatives, and thus regeneration. Neighbourhoods such as Whitechapel, Hoxton (both with large Bangladeshi and Somali communities), Deptford (West African), Hackney (West African), Dalston (Turkish, Kurdish), are all now the coolest areas in the capital.

Nb In cairo its also a phenomenon, the Old City, Islamic Cairo is one of the worlds poorest areas, yet strangely one of the safest. Urbanists studying the phenomenon point toward the proximity of housing (any crime will almost always have a witness), combined with traditional values. A plan to build a new park nearby has even led to calls that this will increase the crime rate as it will open up the area.

...anyway Im a bit off track again, back to topic...

[Dr.T]

A small example of Spanish multiculturalism to MidtownGuy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla

[Dr.T]

In London its not so much a problem as its very hard to build any kind of 'ghetto' due to vertiginous house prices and speculating (not for want of trying Im sure Londoners would create them if given half a chance), and traditional mixing of income types in housing - to this day all new developments, even the luxury ones have by law to devote 30-50% of itself to affordable homes. Meanwhile poor rundown areas are now being colonised by the middle classes unable to afford the rip-off prices demanded for in the city.

Also the Muslims in London have relatively low crime rates, even though some are very poor- some areas of the city such as Brick Lane and Whitechapel are some of the poorest, but adversely some of the safest. The word on the street for property buyers keen to get on the ladder is to try and move into areas mixed with traditional Muslim or West African communities, as the prices are cheap and the crime is low - the kind of areas attracting artists and creatives, and thus regeneration. Neighbourhoods such as Whitechapel, Hoxton (both with large Bangladeshi and Somali communities), Deptford (West African), Hackney (West African), Dalston (Turkish, Kurdish), are all now the coolest areas in the capital.

Nb In cairo its also a phenomenon, the Old City, Islamic Cairo is one of the worlds poorest areas, yet strangely one of the safest. Urbanists studying the phenomenon point toward the proximity of housing (any crime will almost always have a witness), combined with traditional values. A plan to build a new park nearby has even led to calls that this will increase the crime rate as it will open up the area.

...anyway Im a bit off track again, back to topic...

Today 20% of existing prisoners in Spanish jails are Muslims: Moroccans, Algerians, Albanians, Kosovars, Bosnian, Turkish ...

In Spanish jails are 3 menus for lunch: the normal, low in calories and Muslim.

Spain is the site of entry of all North Africans trying to reach Europe (France, UK or Germany). That's the problem with Spain, ... its geostrategic location along the Strait of Gibraltar. In addition you must not forget that Morocco is the world's leading producer of hashish, ... another problem!.

[zupermaus]

In the UK the Muslim prison population is about 7,000 out of 82,000, or 8.5%

[Fabrizio]

"Spain is the site of entry of all North Africans trying to reach Europe"

Also Italy.

The problem that Spain and Italy face with immigration from Northern Africa is similair to the Amercan states close to Mexico.

----------

I don't see statistics for Muslims held in American jails but the situation for Blacks and Hispanics is this:

(percentage of prison population in 2006)

Black males 35.4 percent.

Hispanic males 17.9 percent."



http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5009270&page=1


--

[Dr.T]

I didn't know that. No wonder it was empty when I went there.

Do not worry, it's normal. For example, in the Alhambra of Granada was also built inside a Church and a Renaissance Palace (Carlos V Palace). The tower of the Cathedral of Seville (the famous Giralda) was the former minaret of the Great Mosque of Seville.

[Dr.T]

"Spain is the site of entry of all North Africans trying to reach Europe"

Also Italy.

The problem that Spain and Italy face with immigration from Northern Africa is similair to the Amercan states close to Mexico.

----------

I don't see statistics for Muslims held in American jails but the situation for Blacks and Hispanics is this:

(percentage of prison population in 2006)

Black males 35.4 percent.

Hispanic males 17.9 percent."



http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5009270&page=1


--

Yes, you´re right. Italy is another great gate. But imagine what is the problem in Ceuta or Melilla... Too much !!!

[lofter1]

Due to opposition to the London "Mega Mosque" project the architects (Ali Mangera and Ada Yvars Bravo / MYAA) who drew up that mosque plan were sacked back in 2007.

The architect's website now shows nothing of the scheme.

According to the NY Times there is a new plan for a smaller mosque (holding up to 12,000 worshippers):

In Mr. Mangara’s place, an establishment London architectural firm, Allies & Morrison, known for projects like refurbishing Royal Festival Hall, has been hired to build a smaller version, which would hold about 12,000.

A developer, Sohail Sarbuland, a Muslim but not a member of Tablighi Jamaat, has pledged the money for the building permits.

Mr. Mangara and others say any breaking of ground will be delayed until after the 2012 Olympics. The issue will be finessed by a slow design process, and delays in the planning process ...

That new plan, now known as the Abbey Mills Mosque, is way behind schedule and the building's future remains uncertain.

... London's also doing something major - currently in plans to build the 'Mega Mosque' for 40,000, and capacity up to 70,000 with surrounding buildings during religious festivals.

[zupermaus]

:bash: :bash: :bash:

philistines! I hope they keep the revised building the same kind of form....

[Minato ku]

A mosque with a 70,000 capacity was too ambicious and this project was not really beautiful.
Anyway there is something that I liked, it is the modernity of the architecture.
It is not the pseudo islamist architecture that we see in many of our european mosque.

I hope the design of the new project will also be modern.

[zupermaus]

The design was great. I suppose i'm of the ilk that still thinks bigger is better, it's just the wow factor that gets me every time.

I reckon it was vetoed, underhandedly, not because it was too large but because it was too Islamic a cultural icon to add to the city's monuments.


Grrrr....