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Thread: Guns 'n Coffee

  1. #46

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    IMHO "ease" is not desirable. Yes, people should be able to have guns but with plenty of controls and restrictions on who can have them and for what reason.

  2. #47

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    Socialist.

    By the time you're through with us, we'll have no precious bodily fluids.

    That is, unless we stand up to you now.



    Make that latte a grande.

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Criminals tend to commit crimes in high density areas. More opportunities, and easier to disappear into the landscape.

    The ratio of police to population is comparable to that of cities where carrying handguns is permitted.
    No, NYC, even with it's large population has a higher density of police than any other large city. A while ago I found a website who's author did a per capita analysis of gov't employment. NYC had about twice the police per 100,000 residents than anywhere else on his list (which included all the major cities in the US).


    People get victimized everywhere. If anything, you could make a case for less guns=less crime.
    Maybe, theoretically, on a national basis. But on a national basis guns aren't going away. We have full democratic control of Washington, and gun control isn't even on their agenda (at least for the moment).

    This means that NYC has to deal with the guns situation as it currently exists. This means that criminals have essentially unfettered access to guns, while people who wish to respect the law are essentially defenseless.

    Also, on any kind of statistical basis, it's not the legal gunowners that ar the problem it's the criminals. States that had strict laws on legal carry, than then loosened those laws to allow easier permitting, have not seen an increase in gun related crime.


    Owning a handgun in areas where police response is delayed or nonexistent isn't the same as carrying a handgun into a retail establishment in a city. I have a place in the Adirondacks. By NYC standards, it's isolated. When the kids were little, I kept a rifle and handgun.
    Why? Are the cops likely to walk into your store as it's being held up? It's right at the point/time of attack that you need the gun (witness the incident at the restaurant supply house in Harlem).

  4. #49

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    You're talking a year and half, and several hundred dollars, and that for a target permit. Carry permits are unobtainable unless you fit into a specific class of busniess (carry cash, jewelery, etc).

    This issue isn't a legitmate background check. The issue is that the city/state make the system intentionally and unnecessarily long, difficult, and expensive to discourage people from applying.

    I have no problem with a criminal conviction, mental health ruling background check. But what should that take? Let's say 20 business days and $50. This is not theoretical. Years ago, when I live in Jersey, I went throught this. It was about that. No big deal. But, more than that, and they're playing games.

    As far as people on the board saying people can't have guns, that depends on the person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
    Hard to get one does not mean they can't.

    And by "here", I think he is talking about the forum, not the US.

  5. #50
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post

    ... We have full democratic control of Washington ...
    There's the root of the problem -- damned democracy!

    What do the people know, anyway?

  6. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
    As far as people on the board saying people can't have guns, that depends on the person.
    We shouldn't let Mussolini have a gun. Or anyone who shows signs of turning into a guy like him.

  7. #52

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    We shouldn't let trolls have a gun either.

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by ablarc View Post
    We shouldn't let Mussolini have a gun. Or anyone who shows signs of turning into a guy like him.
    Disarming a bona fide government employee?!

    That'd be hard without an armed citizenry...

  9. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jasonik View Post
    Disarming a bona fide government employee?!

    That'd be hard without an armed citizenry...
    He wasn't always a government employee. And neither were the guys who put him in power.

    Come on, Jasonik; you're smarter than that. Tell us about the "government-employee" S.A.

    Those guys were the "armed citizenry" ('case you didn't know).

  10. #55

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    What would Lew Rockwell say?

  11. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
    No, NYC, even with it's large population has a higher density of police than any other large city.
    I said comparable, not equal or less. Anyway, the website you cited is way off. NYC isn't even #1, let alone twice the number.

    Residents per police officer:

    Chgo - 212
    NYC - 237
    Cleve - 298
    Miami - 329
    LA - 380
    Dallas - 380
    Phoenix - 457
    Las Vegas - 214
    Atlanta - 343

    This means that NYC has to deal with the guns situation as it currently exists. This means that criminals have essentially unfettered access to guns, while people who wish to respect the law are essentially defenseless.
    I don't see your point here. NYC has had less crime than any other large American city for all of the past decade. Maybe the open-carry cities need to deal with the gun problem.

    Also, on any kind of statistical basis, it's not the legal gunowners that ar the problem it's the criminals.
    All criminals start out as "law abiding citizens."

    States that had strict laws on legal carry, than then loosened those laws to allow easier permitting, have not seen an increase in gun related crime.
    A statistic that attempts to measure legal-carry against "easier permitting" is flawed. Show me one that measures no-carry against open-carry.

    Why? Are the cops likely to walk into your store as it's being held up?
    It wasn't a store. If I had a place of business that was held up, I might apply for a premises permit. I was talking about my home in the woods.

    It's right at the point/time of attack that you need the gun (witness the incident at the restaurant supply house in Harlem).
    Individual testimonials are of little value. Statistics show that you are less likely to get shot in NYC, with the strictest gun control in the country, than in all of the large open carry cities.

    Your remark that criminals go to commit crimes where there is less police presence is also faulty. If that were true, rural and suburban areas everywhere would have very high crime rates compared to neighboring cities. For the reasons I stated earlier, criminals migrate to high density.

    And maybe we shouldn't be concentrating solely on (professional) criminals. The guy that walks into a Wal Mart and starts blowing people away isn't a criminal until he pulls the trigger. He's that hackneyed law-abiding citizen.

  12. #57
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Criminals, for the most part, are lazy. They usually stick to areas closer to home. (Which really does not make much sense when you REALLY think about it, but not many petty criminals are known for their incredible cognizance.)

    The more density you have, the more likely you are to have a wider variance of people, some of them being less morally....restricted than others. Combine that with having dozens of opportunities within a football field's distance from home and your crime rate will go up.

    What does that have to do with guns?

    Also, most crime, with or without guns, occurs between people that know each other, not a stranger walking in and pointing a gun at you. It is your spous taking the gun you bought for "protection" that is pointing it at you as much as any other.

    So trying to tie gun ownership directly to ease of permit is rather difficult and easily massaged to whatever you want to try and prove.

    The only numbers that really matter are simple. How many people are shot in areas that allow easy gun ownership, and how many are shot in areas that are either HIGHLY restricted or just plain outlaw them?



    The main problem we have is that most of the arguments for gun ownership are just not valid. There are too many instances that contradict the positions presented in defense of this. Those arguments get even weaker when applied to larger ordinances such as assault weapons.

    Does this mean they should all be outlawed? Not really, but we need to get the reasons strait for their need and use before we come up with a permit issuance system that works for the uses that are relevant.

    Most people are really not in a rush to get a gun the next day, so things like a 30 day waiting period and record check are not THAT outrageous (although you would think you are killing babies by some of its opponents). Applying for multiple gun permits should also not be something that people should feel a rush for. Why do you need 6 rifle permits right away?

    I guess, in that respect, gun ownership should be looked at like marriage. Anything you rush into without the proper checks usually does not end up with something nice!

  13. #58

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    Down here, they teach you that if you have a carry permit and end up shooting someone justifiably, it will cost you nearly $60K to work your way through the resultant leagal process.

  14. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by ablarc
    [Mussolini] wasn't always a government employee. And neither were the guys who put him in power.
    The state power mechanism -- the means for multiplying wickedness and caprice -- was coveted, as it always is, by villains intoxicated with the thought of "legitimate" popular will (the major reason why I detest democracy and other Rousseauian mandate-based collectivist thieveries of autonomy).

    All claims of consolidated popular political power are illegitimate. Popular claims of individual liberty are are not claims of consolidated political power they are claims against consolidated power. Failure recognize this can lead one to foolishly contend that libertarian anti-government freedom fanatics are "right-wing" and akin to state-loving fascists.

  15. #60
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Who is gonna build the roads and supply the water when the "libertarian anti-government freedom fanatics" get their way?

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