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Thread: Cordoba House / Islamic Center

  1. #421

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    "The key here is integration. Assimilation and acceptance to the point where a Mosque is no more odd than a Temple in NYC. "

    Does this mindset want to integrate?: "What Muslims want is to ensure that their secular laws are not in conflict with the Quran or the Hadith, the sayings of Muhammad."

    Does it want to integrate or live apart?

  2. #422

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    Ninj, look up the word "complaisant." (not misspelled)

  3. #423

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    BPC starts his post with:



    And ends it with:

    And Faisal is hate spewing?

    It's ignorant to rely on sound bites "or some such."

    The text of Q&A on 60 Minutes in 2001:

    Bradley: And throughout the Muslim world, there is also strong opposition to America's foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East because of its support of Israel and economic sanctions against Iraq.

    Faisal: it is a reaction against the US government politically, where we espouse principles of democracy and human rights, and where we ally ourselves with oppressive regimes in many of these countries.

    Bradley: Are you in any way suggesting that we in the United States deserved what happened?

    Faisal: I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened, but united states policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.


    Thanks Zip. That's the quote I meant. So because the US supports democratic Israel, and economic sanctions (endorsed by the UN) against megalomaniac Saddam, who by that point had already killed millions, gassed his own citizens, and invaded two of his neighbors, it deserved to have civilian airplanes crashed into civilian office towers? I know this is standard doctrine of elements of the far left, but to me it is hate speech. If the supporters of the Ground Zero Mosque agree with the Imam's statements, they should say so. But they shouldn't cloak their support of this hatemonger under the doctrine of multiculturalism, and tar opponents as "racists." It is not racism to oppose those who condone and justify and apologize for mass murder.

  4. #424

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    Quote Originally Posted by BPC View Post
    So because the US supports democratic Israel, and economic sanctions (endorsed by the UN) against megalomaniac Saddam, who by that point had already killed millions, gassed his own citizens, and invaded two of his neighbors, it deserved to have civilian airplanes crashed into civilian office towers?
    Where has anyone, including Faisal, suggested that 09/11 was deserved. Like so many other things, Pearl Harbor for example, it doesn't occur in a vacuum. You used the term political correctness, but that has become a hackneyed expression for a stance that doesn't conform to one's own. Is there anything more politically correct than any debate about 09/11 or the sacred ground of Ground Zero.

    Saddam Hussein was a secularist, one of the reasons he was feared by the Islamic governments around him. What you bring up is the point that all of this is geopolitics, not religion. Instead of worrying about import-and-export of religion, maybe we should concentrate on import-and-export of goods and services. Iran's largest trading partners include the EU, China, and Japan. The US isn't on that list for obvious reasons, but it is with Saudi Arabia. All the powerful countries of the world have continually propped up corrupt and totalitarian regimes, including Christian countries. It has nothing to do with religion; it's geopolitics and economic self-interest.

    I know this is standard doctrine of elements of the far left, but to me it is hate speech.
    For an argument about religion, you sure mention politics a lot.

    If the supporters of the Ground Zero Mosque agree with the Imam's statements, they should say so.
    Where has all the hate that's poisoned any reasonable dialogue come from? How can you expect a moderate politician to jump into this atmosphere.

    But they shouldn't cloak their support of this hatemonger under the doctrine of multiculturalism, and tar opponents as "racists."
    Well, you've already branded him an accessory to murder, with no dialog at all. I guess that'/s 09/11 political correctness at work.

    It is not racism to oppose those who condone and justify and apologize for mass murder.
    So you think the opposition to the mosque is a monolithic opposition to mass murder? Sure, no racism there at all.

  5. #425
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fabrizio View Post

    The 60minutes transcript ... Zippy would you too please provide a link.

    The only place I can find such a transcript is on a site called: IslamForToday.com "promoting the theology of Islam"
    After searching around the only record of the transcript that I've been able to find is from that website:

    Transcript of CBS's 60 Minutes interview on Sept 30, 2001

    between Ed Bradley and
    Shaykh Hamza Yusuf of California
    Imam Siraj Wahaj of Brooklyn
    Dr. Farid Esack, Visiting Professor in Religious Studies at the University of Hamburg
    Imam Faisal Abdur Rauf of Lower Manhattan
    Dr. Vali Nasir, Professor of Political Science at the University of San Diego

  6. #426

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    ^ I keep getting a message that says in order to access the site, I have to turn my computer screen toward Mecca.

    Does Ablarc know about this?

  7. #427
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    After searching around the only record of the transcript that I've been able to find is from that website:
    Don't look for it Lofter, the link must be fake...something concocted by the evil Muslims, then passed on to their undercover agent Zippy, in order to promote the theology of Islam and distract us from the coming invasion.
    You see, that's why it's so earth shatteringly important to provide another link besides the one from those...those...Muslims.

    Now watch out folks....we're all going to become dhimmies! (we've already got enough dummies).

  8. #428
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Best laugh of the morning:

    Quote Originally Posted by CitiesfromSpace View Post
    Called "Washbasin"??? Isn't it Wahhabism? Praying this was just a bad transcript ...
    That's what was posted. No doubt there's now a fatwā on the poster's head .

    From the same 60 Minutes transcript (October 2001); over the last 9 years what is declared (at the end of the transcript) as necessary has neither been implemented or pursued to any degree of success (and the central question regarding the plan for Cordoba House is whether such a development can serve to achieve some of these goals):

    Bradley: Bin Laden and his supporters were, in fact, recruited and paid nearly $4 billion by the CIA and the government of Saudi Arabia in the 1980s to fight with the mujahadeen rebels against the former Soviet Union, which had invaded Afghanistan. ... Bin Laden's faith is a strict, puritanical form of Islam called Washbasin, which was founded in the 18th century in Saudi Arabia, and is now that country's predominant ideology.

    Vali Nasir: Wahabism tends to produce increasingly that kind of stark view of what is right and what is wrong.

    [ This is discussed on the Vid posted HERE ]

    Bradley: Vali Nasir, a Muslim and Professor of Political Science at the University of San Diego, is an expert on Islamic extremist movements.

    Nasir: It's more likely to support the kinds of violence that the majority of Muslims don't believe their faith actually supports.

    Bradley: Osama bin Laden grew up a Wahabi in Saudi Arabia, and has turned that extreme vision of Islam into a terrorism network that has backed the Taliban government in Afghanistan, and has adherents in violent fundamentalist movements in more than 20 countries. At the core of Wahabism is Saudi Arabia, which spends hundreds of millions of dollars promoting this ideology, which forbids any form of music, dance, or movies. Those who drink alcohol can be flogged, and anyone who commits adultery can face execution. When you say that Saudi Arabia is the ideological center of gravity for Muslim extremists, Muslim fanatics...

    Nasir: Well, because Saudi Arabia has been exporting its vision of Islam, has been investing in religious institutions, education systems, movements that promote its vision of Islam, and has contributed enormously to ideologization and fanaticization of Islam all the way from Malaysia to Morocco.

    Bradley: And how does that view of Islam promote violence?

    Nasir: Well, it makes it more likely that, given the crises that are rampant in the Muslim world, it's much easier that a militant, fanatical interpretation of Islam becomes the basis for launching movements that are increasingly turning violent.

    Bradley: But is there a big leap from that to an act of terror?

    Nasir: There is a leap, but the issue is that that helps legitimate an act of terror, that helps recruitment for an act of terror. What Saudi Arabia is doing is not promoting terrorism, it is promoting that climate.

    Bradley: One of the ways the Saudis have been promoting that climate is to finance religious schools, many of them on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border, where young Muslims from around the world go to be indoctrinated in the strict tenets of Wahabism. Imam Farid Esack was one of them. He spent eight years in a seminary, where he was given lessons not only in Islam, but also in urban warfare and the ultimate sacrifice.

    Esack: The notion was that death in the path of god was the highest of our aspirations.

    Bradley: what is the basic philosophy that was taught in seminaries like the one you attended?

    Esack: I think that there is sense of a very literal understanding of the faith and a profound sense that if we adhere to the literal understanding of the faith, then we will be saved. But then there's also a sense that we are the only ones in the world that really matter, and that other people in the rest of the world, particularly people who do not share our faith, they do not matter.

    Bradley: do you think that teachings like that have contributed in any way to the proliferation of extremism and even terrorism in the region and from the region?

    Esack: Yes. I certainly... I have no doubt about it.

    Bradley: We wanted to talk to the Saudi government, but its embassy in Washington did not respond to our request. Last week, the Saudis broke off diplomatic relations with the Taleban. And now the United States, in the words of President Bush, is in hot pursuit of Osama bin Laden and the Taleban forces harboring him in Afghanistan, a prospect that frightens Muslim leaders in America.

    Yusuf: If we're going to go into the Muslim world for more collateral damage, more bombing, more death, more destruction, the creation of more extreme conditions, we're not going to win a war on terrorism. We're going to in fact exacerbate the symptoms.

    Esack: So the way in which the United States and its allies in the world today go about and dealing with this crisis, that will really determine for a very, very long time the nature of whether fundamentalism will grow and whether it rears its many, many ugly heads.

    Bradley: You said earlier that you point the finger at US policy, I think, as an accessory to the crime, is that right? Let me point the finger at you for a minute. What have you personally done to denounce Muslim fundamentalist beliefs that inform these terrorists?

    Siraj: Ed, if you're asking the question, have we as Muslims done enough, no, I don't think we have. We should do more. And I think one of the lessons of this tragedy is to do something. The question is, what do we as a Muslim world-- 1.2 billion Muslims-- what do we do now to make it a better world?

    Bradley: Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the responsibility... Does not Islam, does not Allah require that Muslims police their own religion and rid themselves of extremists?

    Yusuf: Yes, absolutely. It's an obligation for Muslims to root them out. And I think it is a jihad now for the Muslims in the Muslim country to rid themselves of this element.

  9. #429

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownGuy View Post
    You see, that's why it's so earth shatteringly important to provide another link ...
    ^ If it were a similar situation but involved the Catholic Church... I might want to see a neutral link rather that a script posted by the Vatican or the American Catholic League etc. Would any one here object to that?

  10. #430

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1; Shaykh Hamza Yusuf of California View Post
    Yusuf: It's prohibited in Islam to torture animals. It's prohibited to kill animals without just cause. So the idea of killing human beings, innocent human beings, is anathema to Muslims. They're deeply shocked by it.
    This is either ineffably profound or a comedy routine.

  11. #431

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    My plans are much more comprehensive, MTG. Worked it all out with Charlton Heston. And you all think he's dead.

    As for the transcript: As innocuous as it now is, it was supposedly edited for broadcast; the edited material made it even less offensive in context. Maybe that's why it's hard to locate, but it may be possible to purchase from CBS.

    To be fair to CBS: Interview editing is routinely done before broadcast, but it can lead to distortion.

    I'm sure right after 09/11, the aim of CBS was to present a watered-down interview with Muslims. So good for ratings.

  12. #432

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Where has anyone, including Faisal, suggested that 09/11 was deserved. Like so many other things, Pearl Harbor for example, it doesn't occur in a vacuum. You used the term political correctness, but that has become a hackneyed expression for a stance that doesn't conform to one's own. Is there anything more politically correct than any debate about 09/11 or the sacred ground of Ground Zero.
    Zip, you have been asking people to answer your question, so I will make a deal, I will answer yours and ask that, in exchange, you answer mine. Do you agree with the Imam that US foreign policy, as it existed in September 2001, was an accessory to the crime of 9/11? Do you disagree but find that statement reasonable? Or do you find that statement repugnant?

    In answer to your question, I have no problem with mosques operating in the vicinity of Ground Zero. There are already two there. What I object to it is this $100 million, 13 story monument to Islamic triumphalism, sponsored by a 9/11 apologist and Sharia promoter. Yes, the Imam and his funders have a First Amendment right to build it, but it is morally repugnant, and there is nothing particularly enlightened about promoting it.

  13. #433
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    Do you agree with the Imam that US foreign policy, as it existed in September 2001, was an accessory to the crime of 9/11?
    Accessory is not the right word....but like Zippy said, none of this is happening in a vacuum...there are geopolitical realities that provide rich soil for terrorism to grow (with or without religion) and I'm fairly certain that's what the guy meant...not that Cheney was flying one of the planes with a remote control.

  14. #434
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    The only thing worse than a mosque at that site would be a Mormon church.

    Why can't they build the mosque in a neighborhood like Boro Park or Williamsburg, where they can mingle with other religious freaks who hate the modern world.

  15. #435
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    LMAO. Now that's funny.

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