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Thread: The New York Jets

  1. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    I disagree.

    The paintball event is symptomatic of an organization that has no focus on what it has to do to win a championship; and until that is realized and corrected, they will fail. They may have fun and provide fodder for the back-pages, but ultimately - crash and burn.
    I don't agree with that at all. The problem is this team has become a lightingrod for publicity - everything they do get measured and analyzed. They brought that on themselves - fair enough - but this a non-event and means nothing.

    Asfor Ryan's effectiveness, let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a coach that has brought his team to consecutive AFC championship finals He is not without some success in this league.

  2. #227

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddhead View Post
    The problem is this team has become a lightingrod for publicity - everything they do get measured and analyzed. They brought that on themselves - fair enough - but this a non-event and means nothing.
    You just answered it. The event [or non-event] has to be taken in regard to the situation they are in. You can say that Tebow himself is a lightning rod for publicity, and look at the way Belichick handled it. Refused to talk about it.

    In contrast, not only did Ryan yackity-yack too much when Tebow joined the Jets , he's still talking about him. He should have just said, "Tebow is no longer a Jet. I wish him success except for when they play us. Next question."

    Asfor Ryan's effectiveness, let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a coach that has brought his team to consecutive AFC championship finals He is not without some success in this league.
    That's fine if you want to have some success, but there's a tiny window of opportunity for any NFL team. Ryan was given a rookie QB with a lot of potential, and the best DB in the league [that's something else he should have shut up about]; instead of building on the playoff experience, he let it crash and burn.

    Now they have to start over.

  3. #228

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    The Jets out and out blew the Tebow situation. In making a big play to bring him in as a potential big play maker they miss-managed expectations and set the whole organization up to fail. And that is on Johnson, not Ryan. The Patriots on the other hand have much more modest expectations. As you yourself have pointed out, he is not even guaranteed money. I don't think it would shock the football world if he failed to make the team, and if he does, I don't think ANYONE expects him to run the wildcat while Brady sits on the bench.

    The Jets set Tebow and Sanchez up to fail. As far as I am concerned you highlighted the difference between Kraft (who empowers Belichik) and Johnson (who is too involved in these types of decisons), not Belichik and Ryan.

    As to Ryan's "yacktiy-yack" style it is just that a style. Both the Harbaugh brothers are brash too - and very un-Belichik like, but you can't say they have not been successful

    There is merit in questioning Ryan as a talent evaluator - The Sanchez pick for instance, was a disaster, but again, the more signifiant error was in extending his contract. He has a chance to redeem himself with Wilkerson, Couples and the other DL picks.

    The Jets problem is systemic and starts at the top. Ryan has had his ups and downs, but the fact he is not Belichik or does not emulate his style does not mean he cannot be successful.

    The Jets have a dysfunctional organization. But it starts at the top.

  4. #229
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    I don't see the comedy, I just see Rex being Rex (blabber mouth) and Bill being Bill (tight lipped)

  5. #230

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddhead View Post
    As far as I am concerned you highlighted the difference between Kraft (who empowers Belichik) and Johnson (who is too involved in these types of decisons), not Belichik and Ryan.
    Nope. The comparison you are looking for is between Kraft and Cowboys owner Jerry Jones, who severely restricts all his field coaches.

    For all his idiocy, Woody Johnson has indulged Ryan more than any owner I can think of, given him free rein to do - and say - what he wants. Even allowed him a voice in picking his own boss. Any wonder there weren't many takers?

    As to Ryan's "yacktiy-yack" style it is just that a style. Both the Harbaugh brothers are brash too - and very un-Belichik like, but you can't say they have not been successful
    I don't understand this comparison. Jim Harbaugh in particular, is an unpleasant personality, just the opposite of good ol' Rex. But I don't think it's a matter of style. Harbaugh's personality doesn't detract from his ability to control his team. You can't say that about Ryan.

    The Jets problem is systemic and starts at the top.
    If the man at the top knew what he was doing, he would have allowed his prospective GM to pick his own staff.

  6. #231

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Nope. The comparison you are looking for is between Kraft and Cowboys owner Jerry Jones, who severely restricts all his field coaches.

    For all his idiocy, Woody Johnson has indulged Ryan more than any owner I can think of, given him free rein to do - and say - what he wants.
    • The decision to sign Tebow fell squarely on Johnson, despite his denials. That is a personnel move, Johson should have stayed away from
    • The decision to let Revis go fell sqaurely on Johnson who was insulted by Revis continually complaining about his contract. ALthough it freed up a ton of cap space, I am convinced this did not come from Idzik. There have been rumor for some time now that Johnson was peeved about Reevis and his demands. Either way, I guarantee you Ryan did not support that move.
    • The descison to not go to the salary cap last year despite having the need to fill numerous personnel gaps falls on Johnson. They were $8MM short of the cap last year despite going into the season knowing they needed a tackle, WR's and LBing support.


    I don't understand this comparison. Jim Harbaugh in particular, is an unpleasant personality, just the opposite of good ol' Rex. But I don't think it's a matter of style. Harbaugh's personality doesn't detract from his ability to control his team. You can't say that about Ryan.
    My point is, you don't have to be a Belichik to be an effective coach.

    If the
    man at the top knew what he was doing, he would have allowed his prospective GM to pick his own staff.
    Doesn't contradict my point. Johnson is to involved in certain aspects of day-to-day operations, including picking the coach. Ryan should have had to interview for his job with Idzik.
    Last edited by eddhead; June 14th, 2013 at 11:33 AM.

  7. #232

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    Umm, how bout them Giants?

    You hear that? Yup, me neither.

  8. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishInNYC View Post
    Umm, how bout them Giants?

    You hear that? Yup, me neither.
    To an extent that is my point. Where at the stage now, where everyting the Jets do falls under intense scrutney. This paintball thing was a nothing - teams do stuff like this all the time. Bowling events for instance. But because it's the Jets is a big deal.

    As I said, they bring this on themselves. But that does not mean this was a newsworthy event. Must have been a slow day in the sports deparment.

  9. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddhead View Post
    The decision to sign Tebow fell squarely on Johnson, despite his denials. That is a personnel move, Johson should have stayed away from
    Personnel moves in the NFL are decided by the owner and his general manager. The head coach has input, but he takes the players that the GM gives him.

    The rest of your post [Revis, etc] is also about the domain of the owner and the GM. Whatever problems there are with them, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm taking about the part of the operation that Ryan is responsible for - his job description.

    My point is, you don't have to be a Belichik to be an effective coach.
    You're still missing the point. The only reason Belichick enters the discussion is the common factor between him and Ryan - Tim Tebow; how each of them handled it. Ryan magnified Tebow's persona and potential to be a distraction, and in the process helped destroy his QB. Belichick realizes this, so he refuses to make Tebow a central issue.

    Doesn't contradict my point. Johnson is to involved in certain aspects of day-to-day operations, including picking the coach. Ryan should have had to interview for his job with Idzik.
    Doesn't work. If an existing head coach has to reapply for his job with a new GM, he's lost credibility with the team.

    I don't know what day-to-day operations you're talking about; I see Johnson's problem as not setting up an organization with a clear chain of responsibility, giving Ryan too much of a say.

  10. #235

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    Quote Originally Posted by IrishInNYC View Post
    Umm, how bout them Giants?

    You hear that? Yup, me neither.
    Quote Originally Posted by eddhead View Post
    As I said, they bring this on themselves.
    You're talking in circles. They cause a problem; they continually do things to amplify the problem; you're surprised at the reaction.

    But that does not mean this was a newsworthy event.
    It was OTA. the media is watching all teams. The Giants had an issue when Nicks didn't show up, leading to all sorts of media speculation. Coughlin voiced his disappointment, and they moved on.

    The Jets could have gone bowling, or played paintball, and otherwise engaged in team bonding after OTA.

  11. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Personnel moves in the NFL are decided by the owner and his general manager. The head coach has input, but he takes the players that the GM gives him.
    We cannot blame Ryan for personnel moves such as drafting Sanchez, and signing Scott and than suggest he is not responsible for them.

    The rest of your post [Revis, etc] is also about the domain of the owner and the GM. Whatever problems there are with them, that's not what I'm talking about.
    Personnel moves are the domain of the GM, not the owner. The owner sets the budget. The Coach identifies the need, and influencs the type of player he favors. The GM finds them and manages the cap.

    Owners who make personnel decisons, usually make bad choices. Jerry Jones comes to mind. Do the Mara's make personnel decisions?


    I'm taking about the part of the operation that Ryan is responsible for - his job description.
    We have had this discussion before. Admittedly there have been lapses - you can say that about ANY team, but for the most part, he gets his team ready to play.

    You're still missing the point. The only reason Belichick enters the discussion is the common factor between him and Ryan - Tim Tebow; how each of them handled it. Ryan magnified Tebow's persona and potential to be a distraction, and in the process helped destroy his QB. Belichick realizes this, so he refuses to make Tebow a central issue.
    And your missing mine. It was the Jets front office that magnified the Tebow persona as you put it. Remember the siging, and the inital press conference? Do you think Ryan orchestrated that? The hype came from the front office. Ryan just played the game.

    Doesn't work. If an existing head coach has to reapply for his job with a new GM, he's lost credibility with the team.
    I don't agree with that at all. It happens all the time in business and people move on.

    I don't know what day-to-day operations you're talking about; I see Johnson's problem as not setting up an organization with a clear chain of responsibility, giving Ryan too much of a say.
    Refer to personnel moves section.

    You're talking in circles. They cause a problem; they continually do things to amplify the problem; you're surprised at the reaction.
    I didn't say I was suprised at the reaction. I said a paintball team building exercise is not normally worthcommenting on. Everything the Jets do these days gets magnified - yes they deserve that. But this is no big deal. Move on, there is nothing to see here.

  12. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddhead View Post
    We cannot blame Ryan for personnel moves such as drafting Sanchez
    You keep saying that Ryan took the Jets to 2 AFC championship games, but his QB was Sanchez. When did drafting Sanchez become a bad move? Last year?

    So Ryan has had some success, but the QB that took all the snaps those two years gets little credit; he's reduced to a bad draft selection.

    Monday morning quarterbacking.

    Personnel moves are the domain of the GM, not the owner.
    The owner owns the team. The GM works for the owner, and the head coach works for the GM. That doesn't seem to be a working model for the Jets. you can't blame the other two, and give Ryan a pass. He's done a lousy job.

    We have had this discussion before. Admittedly there have been lapses - you can say that about ANY team, but for the most part, he gets his team ready to play.
    Lapses? That's putting it mildly.

  13. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    You keep saying that Ryan took the Jets to 2 AFC championship games, but his QB was Sanchez. When did drafting Sanchez become a bad move? Last year?
    The jury has always been out on Sanchez. He showed promise his first two years in - and lapses too. At first we wrote the lapses off to youth and the fact he had such little college experience. He redshirted his first two years at USC, and really didn't get to play much until he was a senior. We were waiting to see if the impetuousness and mistakes were the result of inexperience or skill.

    The problem is the Jets thought he was ready after two years ago and staffed for a more advanced passing game - Tomlinson, Holmes, etc.. again, he showed enough promise to give hope, but not enough for for us to be certain he was the franchise QB they intended. The jury was still out. Nevertheless, they placed their bet on a long-term contract perhaps prematurely and this is where they effed up. No matter what happens from this time forward. weather he turns it around or not, that was a major error in judgment on Tannenbuam's part, and he was justifiably released as a result.

    Than they thought - ok, one more year in the league, he has had some success mixed in with some rather curious play, but 3 years = maturity - he's ready. So yes, last year was the make or break year for him. His time in the league and tenure as starter at that point should have been enough to compensate for his lack of experience in collage. The team, the press, even Sanhez himself positioned the year that way. And he fell on his ass. Literally and figuratively.

    And THAT is the reason last year was such a major disappointment. He showed enough early on to at least provide a glimmer. Last year when the stage was set and expectations were highest he failed. Miserably.

    So Ryan has had some success, but the QB that took all the snaps those two years gets little credit; he's reduced to a bad draft selection.

    Monday morning quarterbacking.
    Big time strawman.

    The Jets teams that reached the conference finals featured dominant defense and special teams, and a near league leading or arguably league leading ground game fortified by Thomas Jones, the Tomlinson / Greene combination and perhaps more importantly, one of the best O-lines in football. Those components got them there, not Sanchez.

    There is simply no way you can objectively compare Sanchez's contributions to those of whom I just documented, or for that matter that matter to Ryan himself. That team perfectly represented Ryan's football vision and personality. He gets creds for that. Anyone who suggests otherwise did not watch many of those games.

    The owner owns the team. The GM works for the owner, and the head coach works for the GM. That doesn't seem to be a working model for the Jets. you can't blame the other two, and give Ryan a pass.
    But that is not how it works on the Jets. Even when Tannenbaum was GM, there were unclear lines of command and organizational dysfunction. That falls on Johnson. Their Gm was not a personnel guy he was a cap expert. Who does that?

    He's done a lousy job.
    2 conference finals inf 4 years ain't bad/

    Lapses? That's putting it mildly.
    We discussed this last year. When the Giant's season was on the ropes, and they needed a win to stay in the hunt they got trounced, giving up 40 points, effectively ending their season. That team was not ready to play that day, despite the desperateness of the situation. Couglin is a HOF coach. If it can happen to him, it can happen to anybody.

  14. #239

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddhead View Post
    The jury has always been out on Sanchez. He showed promise his first two years in - and lapses too.
    Big time strawman.

    The Jets teams that reached the conference finals featured dominant defense and special teams, and a near league leading or arguably league leading ground game fortified by Thomas Jones, the Tomlinson / Greene combination and perhaps more importantly, one of the best O-lines in football. Those components got them there, not Sanchez.
    You could also say the jury was out on Ryan, who had his lapses those first two years. But I didn't hear much complaining from Jets fans. On the contrary...

    It's not a strawman when you credit Ryan for those two AFC championship appearances, and minimize Sanchez. He was the QB on a team that twice got to the playoffs; it's a big deal for a rookie. The dominant defense and special teams were brought in by Tannenbaum, who was fired. Sanchez will probably also get "fired" either before or after the season. There's a third leg on that stool that was just as bad the last two years.

    Well, Ryan has the opportunity to develop (or screw up) another rookie QB. Let's see if he learns from his mistakes.

    [Yes Irish, I realize the significance of stool.]

  15. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    You could also say the jury was out on Ryan, who had his lapses those first two years. But I didn't hear much complaining from Jets fans. On the contrary...

    It's not a strawman when you credit Ryan for those two AFC championship appearances, and minimize Sanchez. He was the QB on a team that twice got to the playoffs; it's a big deal for a rookie.
    Ask youself this; If The Jets had a different player, not a star, but solid game manager at QB for those two years, would the outcome had been any different? Would the D, special teams and ground game packaged together with a game manager who was not mistake prone led to less sucessful, more successful, or about the same outcomes?

    In my view, WORST case would have been about the same - meaning (using a baseball term) Sanchez's WAR rating is 0 - despite the extreme highs and extreme lows, the outcome was nuetral, and it was the other components that carried them. If you honestly feel that a mid-level replacement QB would have resulted in a worse outome you can argue for Sanchez's contributions.

    I have also been thinking about my response to the question "How could Sanchez have been a great pick in years 1 and 2, and a lousy one in year 4 (paraphrased so if I missed it apologies). Early on, what I saw was somone with promise who would grow with the team over time. He has not done that. And that it was why it was a good draft in year 1, and a lousy one in year 4.

    And I am STILL not sure the final verdict is in on him. He DOES have physical talents and shows flashes. But I am not at all sure he has the temperment for the job, and that might be the real issue. He may yet find success in the league but probably not in NY. And he'll need to work on his mental toughness first.

    The dominant defense and special teams were brought in by Tannenbaum, who was fired. Sanchez will probably also get "fired" either before or after the season. There's a third leg on that stool that was just as bad the last two years.
    Tannenbaum did a lot of good things for the team and one very bad one. But Tannenbuam is not now, and never was, a personnel guy. This team was designed to suit Ryan's vision. Tannenbaum used his considerable skills to acquire players suited to Ryan's vi Some of these players were hand-picked by Ryan - Scott, Leonard for instance, others were selected from a list of players that met Ryan's vision. Personnnel selection was not a 1 man responsbility on the Jets.

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