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Thread: Decline of Whites in NYC?

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    I probably would have taken action? Where have I ever restricted you?

    iIf I was your boss and you were afraid of losing your job, would you have made the above post?

    The question was, "Where else?" And I jumped in after you make the remark.

    That was not what I called a racist remark.

    I already told you, I have no idea who you are or what you think. I responded to statements you made. And some of the statements you edited out were more blatant.

    You, on the other hand, seem to know what I think and what I'll do before I tell you. How the hell do you know that?
    I should have known. You can't even edit on this site without people spying on you. never again. never again will I bother engaging in debates on this forum knowing that 'big brother' is watching and ready to pounce on every mistake you make.

  2. #32

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    The remark that you called racist was about 'making assumptions' about immigrant groups being harmful to the city.

    So, you don't consider a group of people with low education attainment and poor language skills (these are reliable generalizations for immigrants, this is not racism) displacing a more educated and integrated people as a potential economic issue for the city down the road? I disagree, i think the city has to be concerned, and I hope that these folks get integrated and recieve the education that they deserve so they can thrive and benefit NY society down the line. However, sadly I fear they could end up marginalized if they are in low income hoods with poor schools. Crime is sure to follow. You can call these assumptions and racist, but history repeats itself and trends are there to be observed.

  3. #33

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    I was quoting you at the time; I had no choice but to "spy" on your posts.

    This is the second time you've announced with a flourish that you are leaving. I said the first time that people who announce they are leaving rarely do.

    If you want to go, just go. No one is forcing you to do anything. Your tortured indignation is getting a little old.

  4. #34
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    How do you know that "whites" who are leaving are better educated and earn more than "non-whites" who are moving here?

    On the one hand, the income disparity in NYC is far wider than in the past. Plus the city now operates as much more of a service economy than 20 years ago. Bloomberg has clearly stated that NYC will not look into immigration labor issues to any great extent because he knows who and what keeps things going here. Can't keep the relatively few mega-rich (and far larger group of aspirational wanna-be-really rich) happy without many more down below to do the chores.

    NYC eats people up and spits them out on a regular basis. It's gotten way more expensive to live here than it was 20 years ago, so hanging on to chase the dream is much more difficult than it used to be.

  5. #35
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurecity View Post

    ... You can't even edit on this site without people spying on you. never again.
    It's called Moderating. It's as old as WNY and serves a useful purpose.

    Often what people first write is a clearer indication of their thought process.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    It's called Moderating. It's as old as WNY and serves a useful purpose.

    Often what people first write is a clearer indication of their thought process.
    No, that is not fair. What people first write is usually shit and emotionally charged, and that includes me. Editing has always been there for a reason, so that people can get their thoughts structured properly.

    Our real thoughts are changing by the second, there is no fixed thoughts that the human brain has, we are fluid creatures. We are what we chose to be, and that can change in one second.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    How do you know that "whites" who are leaving are better educated and earn more than "non-whites" who are moving here?
    It is an assumption driven by historic trends, but not a racist one. You have to show me that the whites leaving are less valuable in terms of economic and intellectual capital, and I'll change my mind.

    Racism is thinking that those people are somehow unable to compete with whites or are poor/uneducated due to some genetic or cultural quality of their race. That is not what I was saying. It has nothing to do with race, everything to do with life situation and the hardships that immigrants go through before they can integrate and contribute.

  8. #38

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    ^
    So have you found my race-card posts, which I use "at every opportunity," or was that another example of your fluid thought processes?

    Convenient when you can change your mind at the drop of the hat.

  9. #39
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurecity View Post

    It is an assumption driven by historic trends, but not a racist one. You have to show me that the whites leaving are less valuable in terms of economic and intellectual capital, and I'll change my mind.
    Aren't you making a big assumption and wide generalization, by stating and implying that "whites" are intrinsically more "valuable"?

    The original statement that started this thread is what needs to be verified. Why should anyone spend time debunking something that's not proven or quantified?

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by futurecity View Post
    It is an assumption driven by historic trends, but not a racist one.
    It's stereotypical, and when applied to an ethnic group, it's racist.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post

    BBMW has it right. Of the four ethnic groups, Whites and Blacks have been in New York City the longest. In the case of Blacks, northern cities were an attraction for opportunities not available in the South, but the landscape of racism has changed dramatically over the past decades, and many Blacks are returning to the South.
    The African American population moved into the industrial mid-West and Northeast seeking opportunity, for the most part blacks from the Delta and Gulf region (Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Arkansas) went to the Mid-West while blacks from Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina went to the Northeast. The change is coming full circle as middle class African Americans, and even working class poor, return to the South to retire, escape higher cost living in the North or to try to reconnect with their cultural heritage. Atlanta in particular has seen a boom in middle-Upper Middle class African Americans.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurecity View Post
    in DC the white population has increased 33% and blacks declined by 10%+ or so in the last 10 years. This shows you that it is not a matter of whites declining nationally when it comes to big destination cities like NY, DC, etc, it is probably jobs, housing costs, crime, commute to work time, etc that draw whites in or keep them away.

    I think NYC white population will surely soon level off and perhaps tick upwards a little as the economy picks up and fuel prices go up.. just my prediction. It is evident anyway that Whites are moving into the inner city areas of Brooklyn & Man. and leaving the outer zones of Queens/Bronx, and the trend is probably going to continue as younger whites tire of suburban living and look for a more exciting urban lifestyle.

    The Bronx is becoming an Hispanic enclave as blacks & whites leave in greater numbers.
    While whites may be moving back to parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan, the traditional bastions of white Middle class in NYC (Staten ISland and Queens) are dwindling. It may seem like more whites are moving to NYC, however what looks like gains in some parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan masks the true exodus from Queens, Staten Island. Even with their new trendy and upcoming neighborhoods Brooklyn is losing it's white population in Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights etc..

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    Aren't you making a big assumption and wide generalization, by stating and implying that "whites" are intrinsically more "valuable"?

    The original statement that started this thread is what needs to be verified. Why should anyone spend time debunking something that's not proven or quantified?
    I'm not implying that whites, because they are white are more valuable at all, you have me wrong. I'm implying that if a stable middle class base of people leave, in this case they just happen to be whites (primarily middle/working class whites who have certain objective income, productivity and economic output levels that can be measured to a certain standard today with data) are replaced by groups who do not match such levels (if so, i'm not assuming they will, but history has often shown that immigrants are often fleeing poverty in their country of origin), there may be issues down the line for the city if they are not careful to handle these new incoming groups properly (i.e, integration, education, language attainment). Also, it is important that the city doesn't become polarized between a rich minority (which unfortuantely could possibly be white) (again not racist, but let's face facts)) and a large poor immigrant working class. Middle class is important for the health of the city, no matter what race.
    Last edited by futurecity; March 19th, 2012 at 10:16 PM.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by STT757 View Post
    While whites may be moving back to parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan, the traditional bastions of white Middle class in NYC (Staten ISland and Queens) are dwindling. It may seem like more whites are moving to NYC, however what looks like gains in some parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan masks the true exodus from Queens, Staten Island. Even with their new trendy and upcoming neighborhoods Brooklyn is losing it's white population in Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights etc..
    No No, of course I know whites are leaving and not moving into NYC. I know there was a 3 percent decline, the lowest decline in decades. NY has been losing whites for decades, and the trend is slowing down.

    So, do you think that (forget race, i'm just talking groups of economic data) this will cause issues down the road for NYC if this group is replaced by a bunch of people whose numbers (in education, economics, income, productivity, language) can't compete with the outgoing? No assumptions, just hypothetical.

    Also, do you think NYC will become a plurality Hispanic city by 2020?

  15. #45
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    One of the biggest causes of white flight over the past couple decades is not the rise in crime in the cities in the '60s, '70s and '80s but rather the implementation of school districting and busing. Basically in the past the immediate neighborhood in which you lived in a city is where you (your kids) went to school. If you lived in a white neighborhood the school would be mostly white, if it was black it would be mostly black. The result of cultural and political change in the '60s and '70s created the catalyst to disrupt these isolated schools in the cities and thus opened them up.

    You can draw your own conclusions on what kind of affect this had over all on City schools, but what it led to was parents moving their children to the suburbs of New Jersey and Long Island where districting and busing was only as big as the town was diverse. Schools in the suburbs, for the most part, do not draw students from other towns. Good schools are probably the biggest driver of home value in the suburbs.

    My family moved us to New Jersey from NYC in the late '70s when I was 3, I grew up in middle class New Jersey schools except for one year (sixth grade) I spent in a NYC school when we were in between moves. I can honestly say for the most part, the City of New York does not provide anywhere near the quality education that is available in most suburban districts in New Jersey. The school I went to for sixth grade was considered a real good school on the South Shore of Staten Island. It was nothing like the schools I was used to, I was very happy to be out of there the next year. It's all about schools, if your single, gay or married but without kids than living in the City is great. Kids really change the equation.

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