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Thread: Winter Garden of World Financial Center - Recent pictures

  1. #151
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    They grew fast over the past 10 years. Lots of light + ample water = big plants.

  2. #152

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    They were replaced in the 1990s.

  3. #153
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    So they replace them every ten years?

  4. #154

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    it's really a shame they didn't develop a better roof design for the entrance/exit to the east west connector. I like the "birds nest" columns but the flat roof just doesn't compliment the winter garden roof at all. Some kind of dome would have tied the two together visually.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #155
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    Plus it's off center.

  6. #156

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    New palm trees.



    35 feet tall, same height as the previous group that was planted in 2002. They grew as high as the black support columns.

  7. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by stache View Post
    Plus it's off center.
    Only as much as the north bridge was. They preserved the original angle.

  8. #158

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    In order to restore the original purpose of the grand staircase, I propose that the two (or ideally four) center escalators be extended to the second floor. A third half-height lattice column would be used for support, forming an equilateral triangle of baskets. This would finally allow workers to reach their offices without having to weave through the mall and find one of the few narrow escalators available to take them upstairs.

    McGraw-Hill Construction put out a great article with even greater design diagrams: http://continuingeducation.construct...p?L=358&C=1256

    I modified one to illustrate my idea:

    Last edited by Enigmatism415; April 1st, 2015 at 12:30 AM.

  9. #159

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    Kills the view. There are multiple entries into the complex.

    Less intrusive would be to double up the existing elevators at the west side of the Wintergarden. There's room on the other side of the columns. This would also address what I think is the more serious traffic problem - workers on lunch wanting to cross to Hudson Eats.

  10. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Kills the view.
    For whom? First of all, for those standing on the second floor overlook, there arguably isn't much of a (unique) view to begin with, unless you're fond of the fortress-like base of 1WTC. That being said, those who like this view wouldn't lose it anyway; they'd merely be forced to stand away from the overlook's centered escalator landings. Second of all, for those standing in the entry pavilion (less likely, as they are mostly on the move), the two-escalator option would leave the view of the baskets mostly unobstructed, and not even the four-escalator option would hide much of them. Finally, for those looking into the entry pavilion from the outside, the baskets would be invariably visible.

    The view aside, as we both well know, the original logic behind Winter Garden was to direct the massive WTC/MTA/PATH traffic into the WFC, with the grand staircase acting as the main point of descent down to the lower shopping level.

    It is true that in 2015 and beyond, more of the patrons and visitors will be local residents than ever before. Even so, I still believe that the majority of the foot-traffic will once again mimic the patterns seen before 9/11; the bulk of the traffic will originate from the WTC, and by extension the PATH and MTA (now including the Fulton Center as well). In light of this reality, I think it makes sense to restore, at least in part, the benefits of the north bridge. As I've stated previously, workers who commute via MTA and PATH will almost certainly access the WFC via the WTC concourse as they had before 9/11, and the elevator banks of each tower are located on the second floor without exception (hence the current necessesity of navigating the first floor retail complex and bottlenecking into the few available narrow escalators, only to backtrack east to the elevator banks, if they don't want to hike up the grand staircase). Workers aside, WTC and Fulton Center shoppers could make use of the option to access the second floor directly, while still having the option to access the first floor directly instead.

    I think we can both agree that access to the second level needs to be improved; we perhaps just disagree on how. I think it would be nice to give that grand staircase a purpose once more.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    There are multiple entries into the complex.
    Which is great for those arriving by foot, bicycle, car, bus, or taxi. They have many options. Subway riders and WTC/FC shoppers have far fewer (without detouring).


    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Less intrusive would be to double up the existing elevators at the west side of the Wintergarden. There's room on the other side of the columns. This would also address what I think is the more serious traffic problem - workers on lunch wanting to cross to Hudson Eats.
    Aren't the workers already coming from the second floor elevator banks? Why would a lift from the first level help them if they're already on the same level as Hudson Eats? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

  11. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatism415 View Post
    For whom?
    For whoever likes the view.

    First of all, for those standing on the second floor overlook, there arguably isn't much of a (unique) view to begin with, unless you're fond of the fortress-like base of 1WTC.
    You don't get to decide for others whether they like the view or not.

    The view aside, as we both well know, the original logic behind Winter Garden was to direct the massive WTC/MTA/PATH traffic into the WFC, with the grand staircase acting as the main point of descent down to the lower shopping level.
    The original WFC, and its relationship to West St and the WTC, has drastically changed. Pedestrian traffic along the east side of the complex is being encouraged. There will be a surface crosswalk at West and Fulton Sts.

    foot-traffic will once again mimic the patterns seen before 9/11; the bulk of the traffic will originate from the WTC, and by extension the PATH and MTA (now including the Fulton Center as well). In light of this reality, I think it makes sense to restore, at least in part, the benefits of the north bridge.
    I've lived here since before the north bridge was built, and the foot traffic has always been mixed. A lot of commuters simply crossed at Vesey St and entered their respective buildings directly. As I mentioned previously, there will be an additional crossing at Fulton St.

    A lot of workers enter via ferry.

    I think we can both agree that access to the second level needs to be improved; we perhaps just disagree on how. I think it would be nice to give that grand staircase a purpose once more.
    I offered a simpler, less intrusive option for doubling escalator capacity. What do you think of it?

    I sense all of this is less about traffic flow, and more to restore some lost purpose to the staircase.

    It's a staircase. It can be used to go up and down and not interfere with other purposes. It might benefit some of us chubby Americans to schlepp up and down stairs once in a while. Ironic that there's an Equinox at the top of the staircase.

    which is great for those arriving by foot, bicycle, car, bus, or taxi. They have many options. Subway riders and WTC/FC shoppers have far fewer (without detouring).
    A major route of subway commuters is down Liberty St, an cross either at surface or via the south bridge.

    Aren't the workers already coming from the second floor elevator banks? Why would a lift from the first level help them if they're already on the same level as Hudson Eats? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.
    Have you spent significant time in the Wintergarden? It's a long way around for people working in the Vesey Sy buildings to get to the other side (Yes, I'm being sarcastic). They'd rather ride down one escalator and up the other. These people usually end up paying Equinox.

    Sorry, I don't see any level of problem that would necessitate compromising the pavilion.

  12. #162

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    Okay, I see what you're saying, but the Pavilion's view from the second floor simply would not be obstructed. If you stand on that overlook and imagine two or even four escalators descending to meet the existing ones, how has your view of the baskets, glass, or WTC changed? Only part of the floor below you is blocked from view. I concede that in times of high foot-traffic, you would have to step a few feet away from the escalators, but the difference is infinitesimal. Similarly, if you look into the pavilion from the outside, you can still see everything there is to see in it. What it would partially block is the view of the shops beneath the stairs, I concede that. Are workers so lazy that they'd rather go down and up just to avoid rounding the curve? If so, then wow; the space isn't that big.

    If I'm understanding you correctly, train commuters (whether PATH or MTA) will opt to take a route other than the west concourse to reach the WFC? This seems rather odd. Certainly in harsh weather, most would rather stay indoors. Even in beautiful weather, it is the shortest possible route, and you don't have to wait for annoying West Street traffic lights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Less intrusive would be to double up the existing elevators at the west side of the Wintergarden. There's room on the other side of the columns.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    I offered a simpler, less intrusive option for doubling escalator capacity. What do you think of it?
    Which do you mean? I'm not aware of any elevators on the west side of Winter Garden. If you meant escalators, then I'm not sure where they would go, or to which columns you're referring. Could you help me visualize this arrangement? The escalators should perhaps be replaced with wider ones as well if possible.
    Last edited by Enigmatism415; April 2nd, 2015 at 03:05 PM.

  13. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enigmatism415 View Post
    Okay, I see what you're saying, but the Pavilion's view from the second floor simply would not be obstructed.
    Rather than trying to quantify how much or little the view would be compromised, just consider if the pavilion space would would be diminished at all with the addition of escalators to the second floor. I think so, and the problem, if it exists at all, isn't worth do it.

    Are workers so lazy that they'd rather go down and up just to avoid rounding the curve? If so, then wow; the space isn't that big.

    If I'm understanding you correctly, train commuters (whether PATH or MTA) will opt to take a route other than the west concourse to reach the WFC?

    This seems rather odd. Certainly in harsh weather, most would rather stay indoors. Even in beautiful weather, it is the shortest possible route, and you don't have to wait for annoying West Street traffic lights.
    ML was one of my clients in the 1990s (also another in the north tower). I worked there for five years. I can't tell you why it happens, but I've observed this behavior. After riding on a train and on their way to a desk inside, some people may just want to walk outside.

    Workers in towers 2 and 3 that take the underground passage can go outside at the pavilion and access their building directly.

    Which do you mean? I'm not aware of any elevators on the west side of Winter Garden. If you meant escalators, then I'm not sure where they would go, or to which columns you're referring. Could you help me visualize this arrangement? The escalators should perhaps be replaced with wider ones as well if possible.
    Sorry, my mistake. I meant escalators.

    https://pammysueanddave.files.wordpr...-img_0760c.jpg

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nLR8YG-FvW...0/DSC_0153.JPG

    The existing escalators are between the exit doors and the support columns. There is room for another pair on the opposite side of the columns. It would visually compromise the passageway (grey construction wall 2nd photo), but not impede movement. I'm sure Brookfield didn't want to to that.

    The narrow escalators in the old courtyard have been replaced by double-width, and there are two staircases at the Vesey St entrance.

    I'm confused about the staircase. From what I can see, it's hardly been altered at all, and people around here are happy about that.

  14. #164

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    I see. Well, adding escalators there would require the demolition of a part of the second floor balcony area, and as you mentioned, it would narrow the entrance of Le District (not as big of a deal), but more importantly, it would narrow the entrance of the northern corridor leading to the courtyard, which is a crucial connection point.

    I'm already iffy about Brookfield demolishing the eastern balcony areas (although I understand why they chose to), so the prospect of demolishing more of it on the western side just doesn't leave a good taste in my mouth.

  15. #165

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    The entrance would not be narrowed at floor level, but the upper section of the escalator would visually block part of the view.

    Although Brookfield was smart enough not to present it in this manner, sight lines were the real reason they wanted to demolish the staircase. They knew this would be poison for public opinion, so they chose to frame it as a pedestrian flow problem. If there was a proble, then someone had to do a study, and there should have been a report. It was never released, and in my opinion, fabricated. Even when they announced that the staircase would be retained, there was a vague remark that some parts would be altered for views to the back (river side) of the Wintergarden. (see Lofter's vomitorium).

    I'm already iffy about Brookfield demolishing the eastern balcony areas
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