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Thread: Pier 40 - Hudson River Park

  1. #346


    Quote Originally Posted by CBTwo View Post
    Pier 40 is hardly on the same scale as Central Park, Prospect Park or Flushing Meadows. It can't even fit two full sized baseball fields inside the "doughnut". And why should that particular section of the park be the major financial source for the rest of the park?

    It's a small scale "neighborhood" park (large for that neighborhood) that happens to entertain a lot of people from out of the "neighborhood."
    Pier 40 is part of Hudson River Park, which is one of the biggest and most popular parks in Manhattan.

    It it the furthest thing from a typical neighborhood playground/park.

  2. #347


    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Just because a park is linear doesn't mean it's homogeneous.

    With the battle at Gansevoort over the waste transfer station, pier 40 is the only non-linear section of the entire park.

    Would you feel differently about Related if the pier was a stand-alone park?
    As Zip noted above I am confused about comparing totally different park experiences.

    I never did a square footage calculation of HRP vs other large parks in the city. Perhaps some of the other members here on this blog have. But at the same time it is difficult to equate a contiguous linear experience with a park such as those mentioned earlier. What is the linear footage of the bridle paths at Central Park versus the jogging paths of the HRP? We need figures here to compare apples to ipods.

  3. #348


    Hudson River Park is 550 acres, which makes it the second largest park in Manhattan.

    For comparison, Prospect Park is 585 acres and Central Park is 843 acres.

  4. #349


    Thanks for the figures ASchwarz.

    Now my next question is what is the percentage of those major parks dedicated to bike and running pathways relative to the green (passive) and/or active recreational space not assigned to biking or running paths? One would probably see that HRP is basically a very long bike and running path.

  5. #350

    Default Interesting concept

    Here's an interesting twist on Pier 40.

    Pier 40 garbage trucks smell sweet to some By Josh Rogers
    If you think community activists would be leading the opposition to a plan to put garbage trucks in a waterfront park, guess again. Some of them have begun to float the idea of moving trucks to Pier 40 to drive off a proposed entertainment center to be built near the pier’s playing fields.
    “Sports uses can live with sanitation if it is done properly,” said Tobi Bergman, who runs youth programs on Pier 40 as the head of Pier, Park and Playground.
    “There is no advantage to having [other] activity on the waterfront,” said Bergman, also a member of Community Board 2. “The waterfront should be for recreation. Sixty trucks are better than 1,000 cars coming to an entertainment complex.”
    Bergman, like others who look favorably on the idea, said it needs further study. He said the plan could solve several problems. The Dept. of Sanitation is moving forward with its plan to build a 140-foot garage for three Sanitation Districts on a UPS-owned lot at Spring and Washington Sts. The garage tower has strong community opposition, although probably not as much as the Related Companies’ Pier 40 plan for a Cirque du Soleil theater, a music hall, a multiplex cinema, restaurants, a banquet hall and retail shops. Related would retain the field space and car parking on the pier.
    Pier 40 sanitation idea
    *Move the sanitation trucks that have to come off Gansevoort Peninsula as part of a lawsuit settlement to Pier 40, rather than the city’s preferred location on a UPS parking lot at Spring and Washington Sts.

    *Use some of the hundreds of millions of dollars the city plans to invest in the Spring St. garage to repair Pier 40 and secure its long-term future. The Spring St. lot could be developed residentially, adding to the city tax rolls.

    *Community leaders who have spoken favorably about this plan say the sanitation trucks would be less disruptive to Pier 40 sports activities than the Related Companies’ plan to build an entertainment center.

    *The idea would require a change to state law, as would the city’s plan to build a marine transfer station for garbage on Gansevoort.

    The 15-acre Houston St. pier needs an estimated $25-$30 million in repairs and the Hudson River Park Trust, a state-city public authority, is anxious to find a developer to secure the pier’s as well as the park’s long-term future. Much of the pier building is vacant and would need a large investment to open. In an interview in the spring, Connie Fishman, the Trust’s president, estimated it would cost about $80-$100 per square foot to bring about 175,000 square feet of space on the pier up to code — as much as $17.5 million, according to the estimate. During his regular report to the Trust’s board last week, Marc Ameruso, a Community Board 1 member and the chairperson of the Hudson River Park’s Advisory Council, said the sanitation idea is worth exploring. When he said the Sanitation Dept. was planning to invest $400 million in new Downtown facilities and that money could go to the park, Diana Taylor, the Trust’s chairperson, appeared to be keenly interested in the idea as she started nodding her head in agreement repeatedly.
    Taylor did not return a call for comment.
    Julie Nadel, a member of the Trust’s board and C.B. 1, said the subject did not come up when the Trust board went into executive session Thursday, but she thinks it is worth considering.
    “I think it’s an extremely interesting idea,” she said. “It could solve a lot of problems.”
    The 1998 state law that created the Hudson River Park forbids municipal uses on Pier 40, but Nadel said the law would not be a “deal-breaker.” Nadel cut her political teeth working for Assemblymember Dick Gottfried — who later co-wrote the park act — and she said if there is a consensus in the community and among Downtown assemblymembers, it would not be hard to amend the law.
    That consensus, if possible, will take some time. Assemblymember Deborah Glick, whose district includes Hudson Square, Tribeca and the Village, said last week that the Pier 40 sanitation idea is an old notion that unfortunately has resurfaced.
    “I don’t think it’s a great idea,” Glick said in an interview with Community Media L.L.C. editors. “I have spent more time looking at Related, which is a dreadful idea — which everybody is clear on is a dreadful idea — and I suspect that if there was a little more floating of the garbage truck idea on Pier 40, people would be just as disturbed.”
    Glick, who is fighting the city’s plan to build a sanitation marine transfer station on the park’s Gansevoort Peninsula, said Spring St. is an appropriate place for one or perhaps two sanitation districts. She and others who oppose the Gansevoort marine transfer station and a three-district garage on Spring St., have suggested alternatives in Clinton.
    The Sanitation Dept. currently parks trucks on Gansevoort, but the city has to move them as part of a settlement of a lawsuit filed by Friends of Hudson River Park. The city has just begun the approval process to move them to the new garage to be built on the UPS lot on Spring St. The Gansevoort transfer station, which will include a recycling education center, will not require truck parking, but like Pier 40 garbage trucks, it would also violate the Hudson River Park law.
    Glick said she would be willing to talk to the city and the Trust about the broader sanitation and park-money needs and ideas, but so far the city has not been an “honest broker.” She said when she presented Sanitation officials with a report recommending the Pier 76 tow pound as a marine transfer alternative, one took a few seconds to thumb through the report and declare it would cost $400 million to build.
    Glick also wants to see the recommendation of the Pier 40 Partnership, a high-powered group of parents who have told the Trust it can raise between $10-$30 million to pay for the Pier 40 repairs in order to block the Related plan.
    The Trust’s Taylor has given the Partnership a Dec. 15 deadline to come up with its own Pier 40 plan. The Trust is also considering a plan by Urban Dove/CampGroup to maintain the fields and open indoor recreation and camp space to provide at least $5 million in annual revenue to the Trust.
    The Trust has raised financial questions about CampGroup’s plan and it is not clear how seriously the group is being considered. Taylor and another Trust board member, Carol Ash, the state Parks commissioner, have both told Downtown Express that they think the Partnership should also talk to Related about a compromise plan and did not mention the camp proposal.
    Related executives and Trust staff leaders acknowledged in the spring that Related’s traffic plan needed to be changed, and the Trust has not said there have been any adjustments since then. Joanna Rose, Related’s spokesperson, said the firm has met with the Partnership and has made unspecified changes to its plan as a result.
    “Related remains excited to bring high performance ball fields and over 10 acres of waterfront open space to Pier 40 while ensuring its future viability with critical infrastructure investments,” she wrote in a statement to Downtown Express. “We are pleased with the progress we have made working with the Pier 40 Partnership which has already resulted in improvements that will make a more responsive project for the community.”
    The Partnership’s Rich Caccappolo, who helped start iVillage Inc. and is also president of the Greenwich Village Little League, declined to comment for this article.
    Bergman said in addition to overrunning the park with traffic, the Related and Spring St. sanitation plans would slow the residential growth of Hudson Square and create pressure to transform the neighborhood into a hotel-entertainment center.
    Richard Forte, director of real estate operations for Eugene M. Grant & Co., which owns the St. John’s building across the street from Pier 40, told Downtown Express several weeks ago that if the Related plan is approved, he would be inclined to build a 300,000-square foot hotel tower on the building, but if it is not, the Grant firm would be more likely to build condominiums.
    UPS had been considering developing some of its lot residentially, but when the city made an eminent domain threat, UPS entered into talks to retain parking in the city’s proposed sanitation garage, according to UPS.
    The Trust hopes to pick a Pier 40 group in January, but Bergman said with so much happening in the neighborhood, the Trust and city should take the time to consider whether or not sanitation on the pier is the best solution.
    “Hudson Square has been off the beaten track until now, but what happens there is going to have a huge impact on Soho, the Village and Tribeca, and there shouldn’t be a rush into it,” he said. “It’s never too late to do something that’s right.”

  6. #351

    Default very

    Yes I saw that - very interesting. It does seem to solve a lot of problems.

    If the city can fund the renovation of the pier as part of placing the garbage trucks there that is a big win. That being said, I don't think Related is going to give up that easily. In the related vision, would cirque du soleil run 365 days/year?

    As I have mentioned before, the spring st garage as currently planned is insanity to me given how valuable that piece of land is.

    When you look at which plan does the most for the collective value in the area and surrounding neighborhoods, the trucks on pier 40 option has to compare fairly well (assuming they develop the spring st site with some sort of residential).

  7. #352

    Default League Sports and DSNY won't conflict much

    I'm looking at a chart prepared for DSNY for Block 675 (vehicle trips in and out on a peak day). It shows that out of the 236 movements in a typical day for CD2, all but 11 trips take place at the same time that kids are in school or in bed. Generally there is even less traffic on the weekends.

    DSNY has over $300MM to spend on building downtown district garage facilities. At least we can keep Pier 40 afloat (and Related afar) by investing this public money in infrastructure that everyone can use.

  8. #353


    But at the same time if it needs a legislation change to allow DSNY vehicles on Pier 40, wouldn't it be easier to just allow them to stay on the Gannsevort Pennisula and rehabilitate that site?

  9. #354
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    NYC - Downtown


    A very good point ^

    But by letting the game play out the way it is now (Neighborhoods screaming: "Put the trucks on Pier 40!" <> "No, leave them on Gansevoort!") the City and DOS have succeeded in pitting neighborhoods against each other (when the legal and correct thing to do would have been to move the trucks to the lots south of Hudson Yards -- as was previously discussed and agreed to).

    And meanwhile the City moves ahead with plans for garage, etc. on the Spring Street site.

  10. #355
    The Dude Abides
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    NYC - Financial District


    Am I missing something here? These people are actually pushing to have a waste transfer station instead of Related's Pier 40 plan?

  11. #356


    LOL, at least the NIMBYs are honest and admit their only interest is in keeping out ANYTHING positive, and blocking all outsiders from Manhattan, even if it means garbage trucks, stench and danger 24/7.

    For a typical West Village NIMBY, even speeding diesel trucks full of stinking garbage are considered better than theatres and cinemas!

    Of course, these busybody losers once again miss the point. The purpose of Pier 40 is to find REVENUE for the remainder of the Hudson River Park. The Related proposal funds the park. None of their brilliant alternatives have ever been considerable revenue-generating enterprises.

  12. #357


    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman11686 View Post
    Am I missing something here? These people are actually pushing to have a waste transfer station instead of Related's Pier 40 plan?
    Nope. They are completely serious.

    I bet you they would take a nuclear waste storage site secured by rent-a-cops over theatres and art-house cinemas. They really are that insane. To them, ANYTHING is better than "development" which is defined as any private, revenue-generating use.

  13. #358
    The Dude Abides
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    NYC - Financial District


    I remember thinking this anti-development fight was ludicrous months ago; now, I'm just baffled by it.

    I actually think this could qualify as grounds for insanity. Some people need to reevaluate their priorities.

  14. #359


    A few things:

    - idea is for a garbage truck garage on pier 40; not a transfer station
    - those in the hudson square community are thinking their choice is between a) a truck garage on spring st and the related plan for pier 40 and b) a truck garage at pier 40 and most likely some sort of residential development on spring. Plan b is preferable to some as it takes the garage across the highway and not smack in the middle of the neighborhood and it allows for a prime piece of real estate (the ups site) to be used for a more value creating purpose

    I don't think preferring plan b is all that insane.

  15. #360


    "Plan B" (not really a plan, just some guy's idea) is insane and unworkable, as Pier 40 is exclusively reserved for revenue-generating uses to fund Hudson River Park in perpetuity.

    Now it's true that you could tear up the Hudson River Park Act and start over, but this would be pretty foolish. And there's still no way that truck garages are going to be allowed in the middle of the park.

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