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Thread: Pier 40 - Hudson River Park

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownGuy View Post
    I bet you I could find a non-wealthy person who could afford to visit Cirque once a year(like myself)
    Which is why I mentioned IPN. You painted a picture of very rich West Village residents vs an egalitarian PAC. Both are inaccurate.

    I'm not sure I like the sports proposal; I was just dismayed by the knee-jerk reactions to it, as if a sports field was proposed for the MSG site. The pier is park land, not an ordinary development site, but that's the way Related sees it

    From the proposal:
    Practically, 600,000 square feet of continuous development site is near impossible to assemble in New York City. The opportunity here is powerful,”
    The PAC is overblown and expensive, costing more than the entire park. I understand the desire for the HRPT to find income to fund the park, but at $626 million, the PAC is going to be busy funding itself. This will be an expensive and exclusionary venue.

    And denigrating comments such as
    Quote Originally Posted by Derek2k3
    a floating daycare center
    ignore the fact that the Pier 40 group, by pushing public awareness of the waterfront, was instrumental in starting the movement that led to the HRP.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post
    "Day care" does not equate with "day camp".
    Close enough.

  3. #63
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    You painted a picture of very rich West Village residents vs an egalitarian PAC. Both are inaccurate.
    How so? "very rich" is your wording, but anyway are you contending that the people living in those fancy buildings going up along the West Side Highway near Pier 40 are something other than well-off? Most people I know could not afford to live there, and most people I know either have no children of day care age or can not afford to enroll their children in fancy day programs if they do. Every one of my friends can afford a pair of rollerblades, bike, or possess 2 feet to pass through a farmer's market or plaza, or get a bite in a restaurant. What is so unclear to you? This is not a "picture" I am "painting", this is me trying to get you to understand that there is a difference between the types of people who will be able to get use out of it. I did not say PAC was egalitarian. I said that an occasional circus visit is more possible for less-than-wealthy folks than fancy day care, a recurring expense, and that a visit to a farmer's market or plaza is actually free.

    Please refrain from mischaracterizing my posts or making proclamations about my innacuracy. If you need to, you might try reading a post again to get what someone really meant, or ask for clarification rather than filling in the blanks yourself.

  4. #64

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    IPN is Independence Plaza North. It is a Mitchell-Lama complex. The demographic is not rich. The people who use Pier 40 are not solely West Village residents who live in multi-million dollar condos. A co-worker of mine had her two sons enrolled in sports programs at Pier 40. She is not rich.

    Every one of my friends can afford a pair of rollerblades, bike, or possess 2 feet to pass through a farmer's market or plaza, or get a bite in a restaurant.
    The pier would be accessible to all park users, and would have a restaurant. There will also be a restaurant on pier 26, a quarter mile south. Ironically, the farmers market would be more restricted to the immediate area residents than the sports complex.

    An occasional circus visit does not equate to park related use; what you have is a destination venue that can be located anywhere. Cirque has been shopping itself all over town.

    not just cheeeeldren
    What's that about?

    Quote Originally Posted by antinimby
    The traffic claim is always overblown.

    Whenever I drive on West St. outside of rush hour, it is never that clogged.
    How about in five years, when tour buses to the WTC memorial get rolling?

    Besides comparing these two plans, another question that should be asked is if the PAC is better suited to another location.

    Pier 76 seems better suited for it. It would compliment the new convention center; it could be connected by a pedestrian overpass, which would help solve the problem of the Javits blocking river access. The #7 will be nearby, and there is a new ferry facility next door.

  5. #65
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    IPN is Independence Plaza North. It is a Mitchell-Lama complex. The demographic is not rich
    An island in a sea of wealth. Trying to recharacterize Tribeca and the West Village as non-wealthy because of IPN doesn't ring true.

    A co-worker of mine had her two sons enrolled in sports programs at Pier 40.
    Anecdotal evidence that is unconvincing, but illustrative of my point about parents and their young children monopolizing that humungous pier.

    The pier would be accessible to all park users, and would have a restaurant.
    Sure, they just won't be exciting enough to live up to the potential of the site.

    Ironically, the farmers market would be more restricted to the immediate area residents than the sports complex
    I disagree. I respectfully submit that many people from outside the neighborhood would love to nibble on some inexpensive natural fruits or snacks between park activities. Others might spontaneously throw a bag of tomatoes or loaf of organic bread in their backpack while blading or biking back to their apartment, who knows. A farmer's market has a different draw than a grocery store.

    An occasional circus visit does not equate to park related use
    Other parks have zoos, carousels, museums, etc. so I'm not sure I accept that.

    cheeeeldren
    reference to a comedian who does a character with a southern baptist accent who's always misguidedly talking about the "cheeeldrun" and what should be done with/for/about them. No biggee if you're not familiar with it.

    Besides comparing these two plans, another question that should be asked is if the PAC is better suited to another location.
    That's the problem with having only two plans, it means that if your question is answered in the affirmative, we're stuck with the other plan not because of it's merit, but by default.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownGuy View Post
    An island in a sea of wealth. Trying to recharacterize Tribeca and the West Village as non-wealthy because of IPN doesn't ring true.
    Anecdotal evidence notwithstanding, I've been living in the area a long time, and am very familair with it. You have no evidence at all.

    I disagree. I respectfully submit that many people from outside the neighborhood would love to nibble on some inexpensive natural fruits or snacks between park activities.
    A farmer's market can be easiliy incorporated into any plan. It is not at all keyed to a $628 million project.

    Sure, they just won't be exciting enough to live up to the potential of the site
    I don't think the yardstick should necessarily be the level of exitement.

    That's the problem with having only two plans, it means that if your question is answered in the affirmative, we're stuck with the other plan not because of it's merit, but by default.
    Well, we agree here.

    But while I'm not happy with the sports plan as presented, I would reject the PAC just based on logistics.

  7. #67
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    Anecdotal evidence notwithstanding, I've been living in the area a long time, and am very familair with it. You have no evidence at all.
    Zippy, your wrong. Plenty of evidence to that effect is all over the place. And I think you know that. I can easily find evidence that Tribeca and the West Village are wealthy areas. For you to claim otherwise is exasperatingly disingenuous.

    Independence Plaza North is located in 10013. Well, will you lookee here:

    FORBES Most Expensive ZIP Codes 2005


    You have no evidence at all.
    Hmmm, seems that exact zip code is listed as number 12...in the whole nation! Unless something drastic happened since 2005 that I am unaware of,
    my evidence now blows your little anecdote to smithereens.
    Last edited by MidtownGuy; December 30th, 2006 at 06:05 PM.

  8. #68
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    I'm not sure I like the sports proposal; I was just dismayed by the knee-jerk reactions to it,
    Evidently, one man's "knee-jerk" is another man's "heart-felt". It may not be your reaction or opinion, but that doesn't make it reflexive or unthinking.

  9. #69

    Default Pier 40 / Hudson River Park

    After reading this thread I found some information about pier 40 and some history on the Hudson River Park.

  10. #70
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Pier 40 is actually in ZIP CODE area 10014 :

    #491 10014



    2005 Median Sales Price: $665,000
    2005 Median Household Income: $75,508
    2005 Population: 32,191
    Population Change since 1990: -1%
    Median Resident Age: 38.1
    Average Household Size: 1.6

  11. #71
    Forum Veteran MidtownGuy's Avatar
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    Yes lofter, the reason for the information on 10013 was Independence Plaza North being cited as an example of the non-wealthy demographic, which I said was an "island in a sea of wealth". Go back and check the posts if it's not clear. IPN is in zip code 10013.
    As for 10014... it is 491 out of approximately 43,000 zip codes in the US. Not bad.
    Last edited by MidtownGuy; December 30th, 2006 at 09:24 PM.

  12. #72
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    If you look at this map, Pier 40, the fattest pier, is clearly situated at a point very close to the border of 10013 and 10014. Actually, it's so close to the border that the location clearly shows it as being nearly equidistant from most points in the western parts of those two zip codes.

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownGuy View Post
    Zippy, your wrong. Plenty of evidence to that effect is all over the place. And I think you know that. I can easily find evidence that Tribeca and the West Village are wealthy areas. For you to claim otherwise is exasperatingly disingenuous.
    Your "evidence" tells nothing of the cross section of people that use pier 40. Sorry you went to all that trouble.

    I bet you I could find a non-wealthy person who could afford to visit Cirque once a year(like myself).
    Cirque would be a high-end destination facility. It is not park dependent. It could be anywhere...
    Practically, 600,000 square feet of continuous development site is near impossible to assemble in New York City. The opportunity here is powerful,” the proposal states.
    Actually, they are mistaken.

    The perfect place for the PAC is Governors Island. Unlike pier 40, the island needs a facility to draw visitors, and financial investment ($628 million).

    Would you have a problem with a yearly circus visit to Governors Island?

    The PAC is a land-grab, ameliorated by buskers serenading the multitude.

  14. #74

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    May be a land-grab, but there's a big give-back. To me, enjoying the product outweighs moralizing about the process.

  15. #75
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    Your "evidence" tells nothing of the cross section of people that use pier 40. Sorry you went to all that trouble.
    Trouble? Hardly, it's information that's everywhere, and that's why your portrayal of 10014 as some kind of midddle class area couldn't be left uncontested. You're sorry because you were shown to be wrong in your disingenuous assertion about the overall wealth of the area. I made a statement, specifically that IPN is an "island in a sea of wealth", you refuted it, and I submitted the evidence for that specific statement.
    Pretty simple stuff, so don't fret about "all my trouble".

    The perfect place for the PAC is Governors Island. Unlike pier 40, the island needs a facility to draw visitors, and financial investment ($628 million).
    I would not have a problem with that, as long as what goes on Pier 40 is developed in a way that encourages use by a wide cross-section of people. I still contend that the Per40 Group's plan does not.

    The PAC is a land-grab,
    And the sky is blue. Aren't you used to that by now? At least the result here is attractive, useful, and yes, exciting (substitute intriguing if you don't like the word excitement so much.)
    Last edited by MidtownGuy; December 31st, 2006 at 11:21 AM.

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