View Poll Results: What proposal would you like to see built for Hudson Yards?

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  • Brookfield: SOM, Field Operations, Thomas Phifer, SHoP Architects and Diller Scofidio & Renfro

    64 65.98%
  • Durst / Vornado / Conde Nast: FXFowle and Rafael Pelli

    11 11.34%
  • Extell: Steven Holl

    8 8.25%
  • Related / Goldman Sachs / NewsCorp: Kohn Pedersen Fox, Arquitectonica and Robert AM Stern

    8 8.25%
  • Tishman Speyer / Morgan Stanley: Helmut Jahn

    6 6.19%
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Thread: Hudson Yards

  1. #106
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    IM sorry...


    But I just dont think 40- 50 floor midrisees on the westside will look any good

  2. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by alex ballard
    Think about it: Some of the city's grandest additons came in it's most turbulent and darkest hours.

    The subway, Consolidation: 1900's

    Rockeffeler Center, ESB, Chrysler, public works: 1930's

    Office development: 1960-1990

    WTC: early 1970's

    All of these times we're bad for the city.
    But it wasn't the bad times that spurred these investments, most of these were well on there way to reality by the time the bad times arrived. The ESB and other 1930s buildings were conceived and financed during the boom of the roaring 20s.

    I'm not saying NYC's not going to return to being a world-class leader in everything. Certainly the city prospered DESPITE bad times, but it's a leap to say it was BECAUSE of them.

  3. #108

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    He's right about the subway, though.

    It was discussed for years, and going nowhere. Boston built the first subway in America. Political impetus was born after the Blizzard of 1887.

  4. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp
    He's right about the subway, though.

    It was discussed for years, and going nowhere. Boston built the first subway in America. Political impetus was born after the Blizzard of 1887.
    The technology wasn't there either. The thing about the bad times post is that while many of those thing we're planned during boom times, they we're carried out during the bad ones. Let's not forget the public works projects that gave us numerous bridges, tunnels, projects, parks, utilites, and subways during the Great Depression. That was a direct result of the depression.

    In fact, the WTC too was born due to bad times. Lower Manhattan was becoming a commerical slum by 1960 and the WTC was concieved as a way to stem the tide of corporate outflow from Downtown. If Lower Manhattan was booming, they're probably never even be a WTC!!!!

    The fact is, NYC property is worth 10X it's acreage in gold. No one is going to take the enormus financial and saftey risk of building a super-tall building when people have loads of money invested in the area. This day and age, people want safe and reliable returns on their investments and skyscrapers are a risky buisness.

    However, when the property really starts to soar, as well as the popualtion, we will see a return of the 100th floor office building. Will NYC ever see the tallest in the world again, probably not. But will a new office development ever eclipse 80 floors? Yes, maybe not within 5-10 years. But I predict will see one under constrction by 2020. Mark my words !

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  6. #111
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    That looks like the 80 floor buildings again, we now know it won't look like that!

  7. #112

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    January 16, 2005

    THE CITY

    An Affordable West Side

    The City Council finally got its one real shot at reshaping the Bloomberg administration's proposal to redevelop the Hudson Yards on the Far West Side of Manhattan, and made it count. Although big pieces of the grand plan - including the dreadful and overpriced football stadium for the Jets - were long ago craftily placed outside its oversight, the Council managed to leverage its considerable power over rezoning.

    The result is a better deal on affordable housing, as well as a savings of as much as $1 billion in financing costs. The plan, which Mayor Michael Bloomberg has accepted, demonstrates why still more public review of the administration's vision is needed.

    The housing component of the compromise will ensure diversity and is a clear plus. Thanks to pressure from the Council and housing advocates, the administration's original formula for 16 percent in affordable housing was increased to an impressive 28 percent, 3 percent of which would be in existing buildings. When the goals are met, about 3,500 apartments will be reserved for New Yorkers making low, moderate and middle incomes, ranging from well under $50,000 to as much as $104,000 for a family of four. Builders of both rentals and condominiums must agree to include some of these units.

    Current residents of the 59-block area will also reap rewards. Christine Quinn, who represents the West Side district in the Council, won a $14 million expansion of Public School 51, which will be needed to accommodate so many new families. Add in the proposed extension of the No. 7 subway line, and the components are falling in place to convert the farthest reaches of the West Side into a thriving neighborhood.

    The Bloomberg administration had planned to borrow $4 billion to pay for all the improvements, and to delay payments on the debt until the development could begin producing tax revenue. Council Speaker Gifford Miller and the city comptroller, William Thompson, reasonably objected to that idea, which could have left the city piling up new interest obligations for years. Under the compromise plan, the city will borrow $3 billion and make payments earlier through its operating budget. The effect would be a savings of at least hundreds of millions of dollars.

    New Yorkers should be happy that at last some public light has been shed on the West Side project, where plans have been proceeding for years within the Bloomberg administration with very little outside input. But not every part of the agreement was sunny. While commercial density was reduced about 14 percent, to 24 million square feet, that is still more than enough to make 11th Avenue rise like the Rockies, but without the picturesque slopes and peaks. River views would be hidden from the rest of the city.

    And while the Council got an administration commitment that there will be no financial connection between the stadium and the rest of the West Side, the rezoning itself could be seen as a victory by stadium backers, who interpret any forward action on the West Side as movement toward their misguided goal.

    Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

  8. #113
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    holy cow... does the times own shares in cablevision? So according to the times, i'm a misguided automaton because i like the west side proposal??

  9. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deimos
    holy cow... does the times own shares in cablevision? So according to the times, i'm a misguided automaton because i like the west side proposal??
    The Times says a lot of things. Anyway, does this mean there will be no +80 floor buildings allowed on the west side? That's a shame.

  10. #115
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    Guess not...But I'm not 100% sure

  11. #116
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    7 REASONS THE WEST SIDE IS HOT


    By ALEC APPELBAUM and LISA KEYS

    January 15, 2005 -- You can get a deal on rents

    According to Citi Habitats President and Chairman Andrew Heiberger, rents range from $36 to $45 per square foot in luxury buildings like Infinity Court, on 34th and 11th, or the Victory, on 41st and 10th - about 20 percent lower than the West 50s. The rentals can be a hike from the subway, but if you're paying a net effective rent of $1,890 a month, you can invest in a second pair of sneakers. Dan Marrello, a manager at Citi Habitats, got a corner pad at swanky new Hudson Crossing on 37th and Ninth for that price. "Two years ago the neighborhood was a little more desolate," he says. "Now it's a little more gentrified."


    Apartment prices are jumping up

    Andy Gerringer, who manages new developments at Douglas Elliman, has nearly sold out 130 W. 30th St., a 45-unit condo designed by early-20th-century star-architect Cass Gilbert. Resale prices, Gerringer says, have gone up better than 20 percent, from $700 to $850 a square foot.

    "This baffled us all," he says.

    The price jump isn't just because Elliman has renamed the building after its architect. Further west at 315 W. 36th St., Halstead agent Charles Hawkins has seen prices for raw loft space climb 40 percent in 15 months. He's sold places to empty nesters as well as "visionary intelligentsia types," including the author/daredevil/bar owner Sebastian Junger. Hawkins says buyers find the buildings more convenient than comparable space in other "under-appreciated" corners of Manhattan. "The space is priced like the nice parts of Harlem or the [South Street] Seaport," he says, "but it's better located."

    Whether you're a Jets fan or not, we've got a great bet for you: real estate in the West 30s, the team's potential new 'hood. Mayor Bloomberg has been pushing an area called Hudson Yards, between Seventh Avenue and the Hudson River, for months. An agreement he reached Monday with a City Council committee means the city dollars will start flowing this year. Students Gwenaelle Carruth and Jeanette Asabere, who pay just $1,250 for a one-bedroom on 39th, love the area. "It definitely feels like a neighborhood," says Carruth. "More this year than last year." Here are seven more reasons the West Side is hot.


    The 7 train will carry you all over town

    City planners have prioritized extending the 7 line, reasoning that transportation will push development, and development will lower the city's debt. So the city intends to fund two new stations. Planners hope to install the first, at 11th Avenue and 34th Street, by January 2010. (Even if there's no stadium built there, the stop will serve the Javits Center.)

    The vision is then to add a second stop, at 10th Avenue and 41st Street, when the West Side's population gets thick enough. The 7 is as handy a cross-town train as the L, hooking up with express stops on the Eighth, Sixth and Lexington Avenue lines. Top that, Carroll Gardens.


    You can get a deal on rents

    According to Citi Habitats President and Chairman Andrew Heiberger, rents range from $36 to $45 per square foot in luxury buildings like Infinity Court, on 34th and 11th, or the Victory, on 41st and 10th - about 20 percent lower than the West 50s. The rentals can be a hike from the subway, but if you're paying a net effective rent of $1,890 a month, you can invest in a second pair of sneakers. Dan Marrello, a manager at Citi Habitats, got a corner pad at swanky new Hudson Crossing on 37th and Ninth for that price. "Two years ago the neighborhood was a little more desolate," he says. "Now it's a little more gentrified."


    Jets or no Jets, the game is on...

    The Far West Side remains a work in progress, but it'll happenÉ even if the proposed Jets stadium never does. With the deal Bloomberg and the Council committee just reached, West Side improvements and the stadium are two separate issues.

    Discussions about money are in the future, but expect allocations to clean up a somewhat skeevy area. Look for a new platform at the railyards (which stretch from 30th to 33rd) to be high on the list. That would allow future construction in that area, stadium-related or not. What's more, the Council agreed to help financially by covering interest payments on city-issued debt for West Side projects.


    A river runs right near it

    The landscape should prettify in the next five years, as the city tries to lure developers with big doses of green. The City Planning Commission proposes a chain of parkland from 33rd Street to a pedestrian bridge at 39th, parallel to a new street with the vaguely South Florida name Hudson Boulevard. This would yield "blocks similar in size to those between Park and Madison," according to the plan. There's also a proposed park running the entire block from 29th Street to 30th Street, between 11th Avenue and 12th Avenue. That would be on top of some existing city garbage and towing property.


    New high-rises on the way

    Several developers have proposed or lined up financing for high-rises in the area. Gerringer notes that the Intell Management and Investment Company, which built the W Times Square, has started working on "a huge building" at 350 W. 42nd St., near the Ninth Avenue backside of the Port Authority Bus Terminal. "From 16th to 30th, [big developers like] Edison and Related have sites," says Gerringer. "You could almost look at it as another borough. If a building opened today, it would probably get $750 a square foot, and that's before transportation arrives."


    New eats & drinks

    Restaurateur Alex Meskouris moved to the Far West Side five years ago. "The only restaurant around was the Supreme Macaroni Company," says Meskouris of the old-school Italian joint that was razed last year to make room for - what else? - new apartments.

    Sensing a need, Meskouris opened his modern, spacious bar and restaurant, HK, last year. "People thought I was crazy, especially building a nice restaurant," he says. "Now, everyone's like, 'You're a pioneer.'"

    Superchefs Mario Batali and David Pasternack aren't exactly new to the area - they're partners in Esca, a hyperexpensive Italian restaurant on 43rd. But it was a bit daring of them to open their latest place, Bistro Du Vent, just last week on the much more scraggly 42nd Street. Other area newcomers include Osteria Gelsi, which has been serving affordable Italian on Ninth Avenue and 39th Street for one month. "This area's changing," says chef and owner Donato Deserio, motioning to new construction on three sides of his restaurant. "Many more people will be moving to this neighborhood." Dennis Borysowski, manager of Uncle Jack's Steakhouse, on Ninth Avenue and 34th Street, notes that his year-old place is "starting to get a little more of a residential crowd" at night.

    The area's bar scene is bleaker; choices have mostly been old-school Irish pubs near Penn Station. But Local West, a month-old bar across from the Garden, hopes to change that. "I have a few regulars," says Mike Dosso, the manager. "This is their new local bar."


    Copyright 2005 NYP Holdings, Inc.

  12. #117

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    January 19, 2005

    CRITIC'S NOTEBOOK

    West Side Plans Lack a Unifying Vision

    By NICOLAI OUROUSSOFF


    A computer rendering of the Hudson Yards site, looking south along the pedestrian bridge that is to run from 42nd to 38th Street.


    A view, looking south, along the boulevard between 10th and 11th Avenues that will stretch diagonally from 42nd Street to a park in the 30's near the proposed stadium.

    It is hard to imagine an area more ripe with potential than the Hudson Yards, a 40-block site at the edge of Midtown Manhattan that is the focus of one of the city's biggest development projects in recent memory. But the new zoning guidelines for the site, which the City Council is expected to approve today, have proved to be a big disappointment: the city is wasting an opportunity that it may not have again for decades.

    The guidelines, which will apply to an area stretching from 30th to 42nd Street and from Eighth Avenue to the Hudson, were drawn up in response to Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg's quest to transform a district of factories, warehouses and rail yards into a haven for large-scale commercial development. They allow up to 24 million square feet of office space and more than 13,000 new apartments; much of that will be concentrated along a pedestrian boulevard between 10th and 11th Avenues that will connect 42nd Street to a park of roughly five acres near the proposed Jets stadium site in the 30's. (The stadium is not technically considered part of the development area, although it is a big component of the master plan.)

    The plan has been tweaked in recent weeks to ease the concerns of local community groups. Some limits have been placed on commercial density, for example, and more middle- and low-income apartments have been added to the mix.

    Despite the tinkering, the city is left with a vague, crudely executed master plan whose main selling point is that it gives developers the freedom to articulate their own visions. Even with a few interesting flourishes, it essentially relies on developer-driven planning formulas. What's missing is a voice that could give the plan a cohesive and vibrant identity.

    So far, most of the anxiety over the plan has centered on density - the fear of an overbearing corporate canyon of banal towers, with footprints that might be close in size to an entire city block or rise 80 stories. The scary image that comes to mind is a corporate version of the 1950's-era Karl-Marx-Allee in Berlin or the Kalinin Prospekt in Moscow: monumental projects that threaten to obliterate the fine-grained texture of urban life.

    I don't mind the density. Nor do I mind the sense of anonymity that such projects sometimes evoke: the ability to get lost in the crowd is part of what defines a city. And the project, designed by Cooper, Robertson & Partners with Arquitectonica and the Olin Partnership, places few restrictions on architecture, which may not be a bad thing. Perhaps some stunning individual buildings will result.

    But there is no reason that bold architecture cannot be achieved within a more forceful planning vision. The master plan fails to explore the potentially rich relationship between its various components or weave them imaginatively into the surrounding city. The layout of the office and residential areas is a stolidly simple diagram, with most of the density clustered around the so-called Four Corners site between 33rd and 35th Streets - a potential dumping ground for the biggest projects.

    As you move north, there will be a greater mix of residential buildings, with the bulk of the commercial development concentrated on the western side, across from the Javits Center.

    Yet the greatest failures occur at ground level, where designers must provide the connective tissue that will give the development area its character. The most critical element is the pedestrian boulevard, which runs diagonally between 10th and 11th Avenues: it has no obvious meaning other than to avoid the classical symmetry that is currently out of fashion. As a general idea, the boulevard is not terrible: it breaks the monotony of the street grid and creates a more nuanced layering of public and semi-public zones. The problem is how it relates to the city at either end. To extend this boulevard to 42nd Street, the planners have proposed creating a pedestrian bridge that would span the entry ramps to the Lincoln Tunnel. But that connection seems arbitrary and forced.

    And the park at the boulevard's southern end is dully predictable. Originally conceived as part of the city's bid for the 2012 Olympics, it is oriented toward the soulless, gargantuan Jets stadium planned just to the west. The park's southwest corner will include some kind of cultural landmark: an idea that has become a cliché of almost every urban development proposal, as if a single building could justify any urban design sin.

    Not all of the blame should go to the city planning department. Such creative torpor is endemic in American urban planning. Planners have been struggling for decades to articulate an alternative to the vast mega-blocks and tabula rasa planning strategies of the 1960's and 70's. The false historicism of Battery Park City may satisfy a superficial nostalgia for the past, but such developments are no less sterile and homogenous than their predecessors. And while the rise of big-name architecture has made it more likely that an innovative architect will be part of a development package, that tends to have little impact on the overall planning formula.

    Architects who have invested the most time in developing a broader, more enlightened view of how cities function are typically pushed to the sidelines. The results, as we have all seen at ground zero, include a collection of architectural objects - some better than others - with no vision to bind them.

    It seems that most American urban planners are incapable of plotting a vast development that still provides a rich and textured experience of the city.

    The West Side project would have been an opportunity to think on a more heroic scale.

    Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

  13. #118

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    How much office space is included in the plan? Is there a potential to have a very large addition to the Midtown market happen on the west side (like +50 million sq feet)?

  14. #119
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    Even though Nicolai Ouroussoff's opinion of the West Side plan is reasonable, it drives me nuts when critics merely complain that planners never get it right without offering any alternatives, comparisons, or even suggestions as to how to improve the plan. Comes off sounding like every other bitter NIMBY out there, to me anyway.

  15. #120
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    Is there talk of landmarking some of the more interesting facades (not necessarily the whole buildings) on the West Side? That approach would preserve a little history and urban texture, and might inspire innovative architecture like the Hearst tower, which meshes old and new.

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