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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by eddhead View Post
    Second down (3 plays left) .. inside the 1 (they burned one needlessly on a previous play on the drive because they could not get the play off which stunned me under the circumstances) ... one time out left... Seattle takes it time breaking the huddle... clock winds down to 40 or so seconds... Beastmode in the backfield... and they... pass???

    inexplicable.
    Appalling level of stupidity demonstrated by a supposed professional head coaching staff on that play call. I must say in some small measure it is gratifying because I always though P. Carroll was an overrated coach and was quite surprised with the recent success he's had. Under that prism, maybe not so appalling now.

    Classic Francesa:
    http://www.nj.com/super-bowl/index.s...call_ever.html

    Or as the "Franceser" hilariously puts:

    https://twitter.com/mikefrancesany

  2. #122

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    I don't agree with Lupica's point.

    With all that, you cannot throw an interception on that play.
    Maybe Wilson didn't throw the perfect pass, but Carroll shouldn't have put the QB in that position. A slant-in inside the five is a dangerous play. The field is compressed, bad things can happen - a lineman tips the ball. Looking at a repeat Super Bowl, there is no way a 3rd year QB is going to check-off the play, which is what Wilson should have done. Football smarts isn't relevant; it's the self-assurance of a veteran to override the coach.

    I think two things may have clouded Carroll's thinking.

    One seems to be a tendency for coaches to try and out-think Belichick in big games. The other may have been the timeout taken as the play clock was winding down. Carroll may have gotten it into his head that he didn't have enough time for three running plays; he would have to throw at least once, and 2nd down was the best chance. Some analysts and retired QBs mentioned this, but I think they were just trying to be kind to Carroll, give him a way out.

    Of course it's backwards thinking, that with the best short yardage running game in the NFL, you were going to need three shots to move the ball one yard. Lynch had a good game - over 4 yards/carry. He almost got in from the five on first down. Wilson is mobile, at the least play-action to Lynch and roll out. If you have the end-zone, run it in. If the pass isn't there throw it out of bounds.

    Coming off the Green Bay game, Carroll should have been in the mindset that anything can happen. That should have been reinforced by the play that got them to first and goal. They got their big break; time for basic football. If you can't punch it in, tip your hat to the defense.

  3. #123
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    Carroll was definitely trying to run down the clock, and Belichik out dueled him mentally by by not taking a timeout himself to stop the clock so Brady would have SOME time to mount a last ditch drive for a game winning field goal. He let the clock tick and really messed with the Seahawks coaches

  4. #124

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    Belichik was obviously content and comfortable with the defensive match-up he had out there and (unlike against the Giants a couple of years ago) was prepared to stop Seattle getting the TD.

    I have heard several people mention the 'fix' or plan to not allow Lynch to score the winner but I don't believe it for a second. Wilson would have been revered for the drive...no undue praise would have been given to Lynch for getting the final yard. Nor would he have ever whooped it up publicly.

    While bulldozing with Lynch should have been the primary call; not taking the timeout and going with a quick option run - even a triple if you're so worried about what Belichik is doing - and let Wilson do the honors himself would obviously have been much more desirable.

  5. #125

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    I'm sure both coaches were aware of the statistical realities before the game.

    The Seahawks were #2 in the NFL in short yardage offense; the Patriots were #31 in short yardage defense.

    When the game clock is under 30 seconds, it makes no sense to worry about how much time you leave the other team when you are trailing and need the score. That makes more sense if you are leading and want to make it a 2 two possession game. The Patriots would have gotten the ball with 25 seconds left in the game. The best realistic chance they would have had is a tying field goal. Scoring isn't so easy. The top team (Green Bay) had 48% of their drives resulting in a score; the league average is about a third. You could say that it's four-down territory, but then you have to subtract the clock pressure.

    We never had a chance to see if Belichick intended to allow a (running) TD, figuring his best chance was to get the ball back with at least some time on the clock and two timeouts.

    When the Seahawks huddled for 2nd down, they had three wideouts. The Patriot original defensive set had LB Akeem Ayers. They reacted and substituted CB Malcolm Butler for Ayers. Wilson was left with the unlikely decision to overrule his coach and run the ball.

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    I don't agree with Lupica's point.



    Maybe Wilson didn't throw the perfect pass, but Carroll shouldn't have put the QB in that position. A slant-in inside the five is a dangerous play. The field is compressed, bad things can happen - a lineman tips the ball. Looking at a repeat Super Bowl, there is no way a 3rd year QB is going to check-off the play, which is what Wilson should have done. Football smarts isn't relevant; it's the self-assurance of a veteran to override the coach.
    I agree Carroll was wrong headed. But ask yourself this: If McDaniel had called the same play, would Brady have complied, or would he have changed it? Would Peyton Manning have audibled the play call?

    I am not excusing Carroll by any stretch. A pass play call was bad enough but a slant atthe goal line is at best risky -and in my mind wrongheaded. Still, Wilson did have the opportunity to change the call. My bet is Manning would have.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddhead View Post
    I agree Carroll was wrong headed. But ask yourself this: If McDaniel had called the same play, would Brady have complied, or would he have changed it? Would Peyton Manning have audibled the play call?
    I previously addressed it:
    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Maybe Wilson didn't throw the perfect pass, but Carroll shouldn't have put the QB in that position. A slant-in inside the five is a dangerous play. The field is compressed, bad things can happen - a lineman tips the ball. Looking at a repeat Super Bowl, there is no way a 3rd year QB is going to check-off the play, which is what Wilson should have done. Football smarts isn't relevant; it's the self-assurance of a veteran to override the coach.
    Wilson isn't Brady or Manning. He was drafted in 2012.

    The question of Wilson changing the play was asked of Steve Young on Monday. He said - not in that situation.

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    I previously addressed it:
    I know. I was agreeing with point on the riskiness of throwing a slant inside the 1 yd line

    Wilson isn't Brady or Manning. He was drafted in 2012.

    I think that was Lupica's point. It is a lot to ask a young QB to change a superbowl game-critical play at the line of scrimmage, but a more experienced QB with more established game day 'creds' might not have been as reluctant to do so. Wilson is a major talent and shows many leadership attributes but he is still just a second year QB

    Hence the bold section of the following paragraph.

    Maybe a veteran quarterback would have known enough to check off a boneheaded play call like this, to understand that if you are going to throw it, one yard from winning the Super Bowl, you don’t throw a pass into the middle of the field that might get picked off, not when the only way your team can lose in that moment is because of an interception. .....
    I think the argument is that as good as Wilson is, the Seahawks may have been disadvantaged by having a younger, less experienced QB at the helm. That doesn't negate the fact that the root cause was a really stupid call by Carroll or whomever.
    Last edited by eddhead; February 6th, 2015 at 04:28 PM.

  9. #129

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    I didn't read it that way.

    While Lupica acknowledged Wilson's inexperience, he still said:

    It is why this is on Wilson as much as any of them
    I think the Seahawks were disadvantaged by Wilson's inexperience only because Carroll put him in that position. This is looking backwards, but what he did was call a stupid play and expect his QB to fix it by ignoring him.

    If you take away the great catches by Matthews and the lucky bounce to Kearse, Wilson didn't have a particularly good passing game from the pocket. What he was good at was avoiding tackles when he rolled. Even when defenders had him squared up, he avoided sacks. The only big sack I remember was when he stood in the pocket in the 4th quarter.

    If Carroll thought that the Patriots were going to jam the box and stop the run, why did he run a play into the box, and for a wideout with 18 catches in three years? If he was intent on a 2nd down pass play, he could have run play action to Lynch to hold the defense, and had Wilson rollout. Execute the pass if it's there, or take the end zone. If neither is there, throw it out of bounds.

    The play that was called was bang-bang.

    If you want to share blame, I think a better case can be made for Lockette. Key on Lockette and Butler as the ball is snapped. Lockette makes a poor non-fake to the outside that only wastes a step, as Butler stays squared up. He's got good sight lines to both the QB and the WR.

    Video can't be embedded: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7rPIg7ZNQ8

    To his credit, Carroll put it all on himself, while the OC Bevell said Lockette "could have been stronger to the ball."

  10. #130

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    One other comment on Wilson. I realize this was a semi bang-bang play and as such may not have presented a lot of opportunity for Wilson to 'look off' Lockette, but he seemed locked in on his primary from the time the ball as snapped. Butler made a good play,breaking hard on the ball. It seems he followed Wilson's eyes to the receiver and made a hard break.

    I think Wilson is an outstanding young QB, but like many young QB's he sometimes has trouble looking of his primary. Again, this was kind of bang-bang, but I think he did have a brief opportunity to look off. Had he taken it, he likely would have frozen Butler for an instance which is all he really needed.

    Still a dumb call though. On second and goal from the 1 with the best power running back in the league you have to commit to punching it in.

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