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Thread: St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church

  1. #61

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    The Lower Manhattan Plan 1966

    Not sure if pedestrian bridges were specifically mentioned in the above study, but they were integral to Lower Manhattan redevelopment at the time. Something like the 15 foot plan, referring to the height of a network of bridges.

    Besides the south bridge over West St, the bridges over Liberty St from the WTC and over Greenwich from the firehouse (never opened) to the 130 Liberty plaza were part of the plan. If a building had gone up at that parking lot, there probably would have been another bridge over Washington St.

  2. #62
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    There is mention in the LM Plan of pedestrian overpasses, with discussion of possible future overpasses to the east (Page 39), specifically across Church Street (P. 40).

    On Page 42 there is discussion of a pedestrian overpass (or underpass) across Whitehall, from the Staten Island Ferry Terminal to what is now 1 NY Plaza.

    Elsewhere in the Plan the tern "grade separated pedestrian crossings" is also used in regard to Fulton, Dey & Liberty Streets.

  3. #63

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    Hmmm, we would have lost 90 west in the 1966 plan. And the WTC would have had a "wedge of light" plaza to the west. :P

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by BPC View Post
    Even before the terrorist era, there were appreciable concerns that the towers could be felled by an accidental airline collision. The PA promised everyone that the towers would hold up. Turns out, they screwed up the tests, they inadequately fireproofed the steel beams, etc. .

    Well there's first of all, no precedent for such an act of hijacking commercial airliners and doing this, the architect designed the towers in such a way as to withstand an aircraft collision. NO ONE can guarantee a building will withstand such an onslaught, the building was built at a time when the largest plane was quite a bit smaller/lighter/slower than today's. It's like designing a building 40 years ago to withstand a truck full of TNT, and 40 years later someone detonates a nuke bomb in the basement, and everyone screaming the architect didn't design the building well enough to stand up!
    All the fireproofing in the world isn't going to stop a fireball from a 600 MPH jetplane slamming into structural steel supports, taking them clear out and exploding.

    Office buildings are not designed to be war bunkers!


    If there's any blame to go around the should start with;

    The shitty airline security, the crappy airline policies that dictated everyone cooperate with hijackers, the fact that cockpit doors were and still I think arent re-inforced against forced intrusion, the airlines resisted doing it because it adds weight and fuel cost, but then they have INSURANCE, so if the plane crashes, the insurance, not the airlines pay the claims out. As a bonus the airline gets a brand new plane for free.
    Next, maybe some blame goes to the contractors building the WTC, the designers and fabricators of the "clips" that held the floor supports in place which failed, cutting corners? poor workmanship? not up to full standards?

    Then, the rest of the blame goes to a band of renegade religious NUTS, spurred on in part by things we have done and continue to do overseas.our foreign policies, embargos and all the rest of it all factors into taking part of the overall BLAME.

    There was no one, single thing, no one single blame, it was a package deal, with a LOT of blame to go around, and everyone involved must accept a portion of their share of the blame.

  5. #65

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    ^
    Many people must have been grateful that the buildings lasted as long as they did.

    News article from Dec 2001

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanSculptures View Post
    ... the building was built at a time when the largest plane was quite a bit smaller/lighter/slower than today's.
    Boeing 767s crashed into both towers. The 767 is a narrower version of the 747, which has been flying since 1970.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanSculptures View Post
    If there's any blame to go around the should start with;

    The shitty airline security, the crappy airline policies that dictated everyone cooperate with hijackers, the fact that cockpit doors were and still I think arent re-inforced against forced intrusion, the airlines resisted doing it because it adds weight and fuel cost, but then they have INSURANCE, so if the plane crashes, the insurance, not the airlines pay the claims out. As a bonus the airline gets a brand new plane for free.
    Do you have any idea how much a jumbo jet weighs? Cockpit doors were not reinforced pre-9/11 because the thinking was passengers should be able to get in the cockpit if the pilots became incapacitated. Adding a few metal bars on a door has no material effect on weight and fuel cost. It's like saying the mosquito on your windshield is hurting your car's fuel efficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanSculptures View Post
    ... Then, the rest of the blame goes to a band of renegade religious NUTS, spurred on in part by things we have done and continue to do overseas.our foreign policies, embargos and all the rest of it all factors into taking part of the overall BLAME."
    I have an Imam I think you would like to meet.

  7. #67

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    August 23, 2010

    Amid Furor on Islamic Center, Pleas for Orthodox Church Nearby

    By PAUL VITELLO

    The furor over plans to build an Islamic center two blocks from ground zero had already been joined by several politicians. On Monday, two politicians were joined in turn by officials of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, who sought to use the controversy to focus attention on their long-stymied effort to rebuild a church destroyed on 9/11 at the foot of the World Trade Center.

    At a news conference near the trade center site, church officials appeared with former Gov. George E. Pataki and a Greek-American Congressional candidate from Long Island — both opponents of the Islamic center — to make their case: Government officials who appear to be clearing the way for the center, which includes a mosque, are blocking the reconstruction of St. Nicholas Church, the only house of worship destroyed in the terrorist attacks.

    And though church officials did not go quite as far, Mr. Pataki and the candidate, George Demos, drew a sharp line between the rightness of the Greek Orthodox project and the wrongness of the Muslim one.

    Mr. Pataki cast doubt on the wisdom of city officials’ allowing a community center and mosque near ground zero when “we don’t know the funding, we don’t know the view of the people behind it.” By contrast, he said, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which oversees the trade center reconstruction site, had failed to “reach out and engage in a dialogue” about rebuilding the church with Greek Orthodox officials, who, he suggested, were a known quantity.

    Bishop Andonios of Phasiane, chancellor of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, stood beside Mr. Pataki and Mr. Demos, who is seeking the Republican nomination in New York’s First Congressional District. Mr. Demos said, without offering evidence, that the Islamic center would be built with money from Saudi Arabia, “a nation that prohibits people from even wearing a cross or the Star of David.”

    But the bishop said he did not intend to fan the bitter dispute over the Islamic center with his presence at the news conference. “It’s unfortunate that it took a controversy over a mosque to bring attention to the church,” he said. He described that attention as “a silver lining” of the increasingly bitter clash.

    Opponents of the proposed Islamic community center, planned as a 13-story building at 51 Park Place, have voiced an array of arguments against it. Some say it is insensitive to the families of those who died at ground zero; others see it as a symbol of triumph for the terrorists behind the attacks.

    Organizers of the project, led by a Sufi imam and a group he founded, the Cordoba Initiative, say the center would help foster understanding among people of all faiths, and stand as a symbol of pluralism and tolerance. Calls to the organizers seeking comment were not returned.

    Unlike some religious leaders who have spoken in favor of the Muslim center, including the pastor of Trinity Wall Street, the historic Episcopal church near ground zero, Bishop Andonios said he and other Greek Orthodox leaders remained neutral.

    “We didn’t want to say anything that might jeopardize the plans for rebuilding our church,” he said in a telephone interview. “That is our No. 1 concern: building our church.”

    Stephen Sigmund, a spokesman for the Port Authority, said there was never any doubt that the church would be rebuilt. In 2008, the authority agreed to accommodate a 24,000-square-foot church building just east of St. Nicholas’s original location on Cedar Street, and promised $20 million to subsidize construction. But the following year, he said, final negotiations broke down over the precise siting and size of the building.

    Bishop Andonios said the issues were more complex than that, and he criticized the Port Authority as having “cut off all communications” with church officials. He expressed discomfort at stepping into the dispute on the side of those who adamantly oppose the Cordoba project.

    “To us, this is an opportunity for everyone — to see some progress in our negotiations with the Port Authority,” Bishop Andonios said. “But also, for the people involved in the mosque, this controversy is their opportunity to dialogue with the community; to reach a better understanding of people’s sensitivities, perhaps.”

    It was the news media, and then a number of political candidates, who first brought attention to the purported disparity in the official treatment of the developers of the Islamic center and of the Orthodox church, the bishop said.

    “Some Greek-American newspaper reporters called me first,” Bishop Andonios said. “Then I heard from the candidates. Then it was Fox News.”

    Mr. Sigmund, the Port Authority spokesman, said the authority has no oversight of any building outside the ground zero reconstruction zone, including the Islamic center.

    Colin Moynihan contributed reporting.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/24/nyregion/24greek.html

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by BPC View Post
    Boeing 767s crashed into both towers. The 767 is a narrower version of the 747, which has been flying since 1970.
    Yamasaki completed the design in 1964.

  9. #69
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPC View Post
    ... On Monday, two politicians were joined in turn by officials of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, who sought to use the controversy to focus attention on their long-stymied effort to rebuild a church destroyed on 9/11 at the foot of the World Trade Center.

    ... church officials appeared with former Gov. George E. Pataki and a Greek-American Congressional candidate from Long Island — both opponents of the Islamic center — to make their case: Government officials who appear to be clearing the way for the center, which includes a mosque, are blocking the reconstruction of St. Nicholas Church, the only house of worship destroyed in the terrorist attacks ...

    Mr. Sigmund, the Port Authority spokesman, said the authority has no oversight of any building outside the ground zero reconstruction zone, including the Islamic center.
    No doubt some opportunistic potato heads will still try to claim collusion between the current Governors of NY / NJ and the Imam.

    Pataki is a fine one to be complaining about any delays or mess-ups having to do with the WTC.

  10. #70

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    At a news conference near the trade center site, church officials appeared with former Gov. George E. Pataki and a Greek-American Congressional candidate from Long Island both opponents of the Islamic center to make their case: Government officials who appear to be clearing the way for the center, which includes a mosque, are blocking the reconstruction of St. Nicholas Church, the only house of worship destroyed in the terrorist attacks.
    So they went to the farm and dug up Mr Potato Head, who predictably, has his name attached to an inaccurate statement.

    A bad move.

  11. #71

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    A minute apart. That was creepy, Lofter.

  12. #72
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Looks like we both were itching to fry the former potato

  13. #73
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Not as creepy as potato head ...

    I would have posted this quicker but got this first:

    This forum requires that you wait 30 seconds between posts. Please try again in 6 seconds.

  14. #74

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Yamasaki completed the design in 1964.
    So what?

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