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Thread: St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church

  1. #91
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    No doubt the collapse of financial industry (less than two months after this deal was announced), and the now-moribund plan for JP Morgan to build at 5WTC (and kick in $10M for the church infrastructure) is one reason that no deal was completed.

    Here's the JULY 2008 deal as announced by the PA:

    Port Authority, St. Nicholas Church Reach Ground Zero Deal

    NY OBSERVER
    By Eliot Brown
    July 28, 2008

    As expected, the Port Authority last week approved the land deal with St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church to allow the Port to use the church's Ground Zero land and build a vehicle security center below.

    The bi-state agency agreed to give the church $20 million ($10 million is supposed to come from JPMorgan Chase for its planned adjacent building, though we'll see if that tower ever happens), along with up to $40 million for infrastructure. The church will get a significantly larger lot than it had prior to September 11, 2001, at 8,100 square feet.

    Release below.

    PORT AUTHORITY AND St. NICHOLAS CHURCH REACH AGREEMENT
    ON REBUILDING CHURCH AT WORLD TRADE CENTER SITE


    Agreement Allows WTC Vehicle Security Center to Move Forward

    The Port Authority and St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church have reached an agreement that will allow the 92-year-old church to be rebuilt near its former location at the World Trade Center site. The agreement also resolves a key issue - one of the 15 fundamental issues identified in last month's Port Authority World Trade Center Assessment — that will allow construction to proceed on the Vehicle Security Center - a vital artery that will serve nearly every facility on the site and is a key driver of schedules and costs of the other projects.

    At its monthly meeting today, the bistate agency's Board of Commissioners authorized an agreement between the Port Authority, the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation, the City of New York and St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church that will move the site of the Greek Church to allow for access and construction needed for the construction of the Vehicle Security Center.

    Under the agreement, St. Nicholas Church agreed to convey property at 155 Cedar Street - where the church was located before it was destroyed on 9/11 - to the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation. LMDC, in turn, will transfer the parcel at 130 Liberty Street to the church for its new building. LMDC will then transfer property at 155 Cedar Street, 140 Liberty Street and a portion of 130 Liberty Street to the Port Authority for construction of the South Bathtub, which will house the Vehicle Security Center.

    St. Nicholas will receive up to $20 million in direct costs for the rebuilt church, including $10 million from the Port Authority to mitigate the impact on the cost of building the church over the Vehicle Security Center, and $10 million from a third party as part of a future development agreement for the Tower 5 site. The Port Authority will provide an additional $20 million, up to a maximum of $40 million, to build the infrastructure needed to support the church on top of the Vehicle Security Center.

    As a result of this agreement, the Board approved an $88.6 million contract with the joint venture of E.E. Cruz & Co. and Nicholson, LLC for construction of the walls of the South Bathtub south of the existing World Trade Center site, which will be used ultimately to house the vehicle screening facility and parking for approximately 28 tour buses. The new South Bathtub will be bounded by Liberty, Greenwich, Cedar and West streets.

    Port Authority Chairman Anthony R. Coscia said, "This agreement with the Greek Church brings to a successful close months of negotiations on an issue that, left unresolved, would have affected the successful construction progress we've made in the past two years and the future work we need to do at the World Trade Center site. It represents the Port Authority's firm resolve to do what is necessary to advance the rebuilding process as quickly as possible."

    Port Authority Executive Director Chris Ward said, "Resolving this lynchpin issue in a matter of weeks is a concrete example of the new way of doing business at the World Trade Center site. Much more remains to be done, but this agreement represents an important step forward."

    The St. Nicholas Church land rights claim was one of 15 key issues outlined in the World Trade Center Assessment report, which was commissioned by New York Governor David A. Paterson and released publicly on June 30.

  2. #92
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    From the NY TIMES March 18, 2009:

    ... the two sides never came to final terms. After months of negotiations, the Port Authority, which is overseeing reconstruction at ground zero, ended its talks with the church on Monday, saying that the church had sought increasingly costly concessions.

    Complaints, of course, abound on both sides.

    The authority now says that St. Nicholas is free to rebuild the church on its own parcel at 155 Cedar Street, just east of West Street. The authority will, in turn, use eminent domain to get control of the land beneath that parcel so it can move ahead with building foundation walls and a bomb-screening center for trucks, buses and cars entering the area.

    “We made an extraordinarily generous offer to resolve this issue and spent eight months trying to finalize that offer, and the church wanted even more on top of that,” said Stephen Sigmund, a spokesman for the Port Authority. “They have now given us no choice but to move on to ensure the site is not delayed. The church continues to have the right to rebuild at their original site, and we will pay fair market value for the underground space beneath that building.”

    Last July, the Port Authority and the Greek Orthodox Church announced a tentative plan to rebuild the church just east of its original site, at Liberty and Greenwich Streets. The authority agreed to provide the church with land for a 24,000-square-foot house of worship, far larger than the original, and $20 million. Since the church would be built in a park over the bomb-screening center, the authority also agreed to pay up to $40 million for a blast-proof platform and foundation.

    >>[NOTE: the 4-story original church, on a 1,200 SF lot, was less than 5,000 sf]

    In recent negotiations, the authority cut the size of the church slightly and told church officials that its dome could not rise higher than the trade center memorial. The church, in turn, wanted the right to review plans for both the garage with the bomb-screening center and the park, something the authority was unwilling to provide. More important, authority officials said, the church wanted the $20 million up front, rather than in stages. Officials said they feared that the church, which has raised about $2 million for its new building, would come back to the authority for more.

    The termination of negotiations is a major setback for the little church, a parish of 70 families that is nearly 90 years old. St. Nicholas officials had hoped to build an impressive structure, with a traditional Greek Orthodox dome, and a nondenominational center for visitors to ground zero. That will not be possible on the church’s original 1,200-square-foot lot, although church officials say they hope for reconciliation.

    “We consider the rebuilding of the St. Nicholas Church a sacred obligation to the victims of 9/11, to the city of New York, to the people of America and in fact to the international community,” said Stavros H. Papagermanos, a spokesman for the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. “We will continue to discuss in good faith and we believe that all parties involved are well-intended, and ultimately we will overcome any obstacles that have arisen.”

    One person who was involved in the negotiations on behalf of the church, and who insisted on anonymity so as not to inflame the situation, criticized the Port Authority, saying it had made constantly shifting demands on St. Nicholas. Still, he said, the remaining issues were relatively small.

    But it does not appear that the Port Authority is posturing ...

  3. #93
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    I wonder if the Greek Orthodox Church has raised any more than that $2 Million in the last year?

  4. #94
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    From the NY TIMES July 3, 2008 ...

    Church’s Troubles Typify Ground Zero Delays

    ... The Greek Orthodox Church offers one example, but there are others. For instance, the design of the $2.5 billion World Trade Center Transportation Hub is being substantially revised, even though construction is under way, making it impossible to accurately predict its completion date or costs. That in turn has made it difficult to predict the timetable and budget for a half-dozen other projects that depend on the hub.

    The church has for several years wanted to build the new St. Nicholas a block northeast of its original home on Cedar Street. But doing so would require trading land with the Port Authority, and an agreement has proven elusive. In the meantime, the church designed a domed marble complex that would be six times the size of its original home, and far more expensive.

    Both St. Nicholas and the Port Authority are eager to resolve the issues quickly, especially since the authority plans to pick a contractor to build the southern perimeter wall for the entire site this summer, and it needs title to the church’s property to proceed. But officials involved in the talks say there remain substantial differences over the size of the church complex and the amount of money the Port Authority will contribute to building it.

    “We understand the church’s mission,” said Chris Ward, executive director of the Port Authority. “It is part of the history of the site and we want to maintain that. We just need to put the project in the right context.”

    John E. Pitsikalis, president of the St. Nicholas parish council, said his congregation of 70 families wanted both a new home and a place where visitors and tourists, regardless of their religion, could commemorate the lives lost on Sept. 11. Most of the families currently worship at SS. Constantine and Helen Cathedral in Downtown Brooklyn, where their priest, the Rev. John Romas, was assigned.

  5. #95
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Wow, a congregation of 70 families and a new church building that would cost a minimum of $20 M of taxpayer money!

    That's > $285 K per family.

    Then add the full estimated cost of the new church + the needed bomb proof base @ ~ $60,000,000.

    Now we're up to nearly $860,000 / family.

    But considering the $2 M raised by the congregation (~ $25 K / family) who should complain?

    (Although the link for Donations at their website could use some work)

    And the dome and marble do sound like nice touches -- definitely a far cry from their former tenement-ish + humble home. No doubt Jesus would be impressed and say, "Build it!"

  6. #96
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    In 2006 the LMDC paid the Milstein Properties group $59,000,000 for their lots, which had no structures on them (aside from a little parking lot shack) and covered the entire rest of the block where the church stood (Block 56, Lot 20).

    NYC DOF DEED 2.01.2006 (Manhattan Block 56, Lots 15 & 21).

    The Milstein lots covered ~ !9,000 sf.

    The church lot is ~ 1,200 sf.

    The Tax Lot Map for Block 56:

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #97
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Greek Church Gets Backing

    Mayor Optimistic About Rebuilding At Ground Zero

    THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
    By CHRIS HERRING
    AUGUST 28, 2010

    Mayor Michael Bloomberg said Friday he was confident that St. Nicholas Church, the only place of worship destroyed in the 9-11 attacks, would be rebuilt.

    In his weekly conversation with radio host John Gambling, the mayor suggested a deal for the church's rebuilding was imminent.

    "Oh, there's no question about that," Mr. Bloomberg said on the radio program. "The archbishop of the Greek Orthodox Church lives across the street from me, and if you think I want him coming across with his staff and beating on my door and saying, 'Come on, Mike!' I'm not going to let that happen."

    Mr. Bloomberg said the church and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which oversees the construction site, have simply had differences concerning the exact location and size of the new church.

    Indeed, the parties appeared to be close to terms for the rebuilding back in 2008, but the deal was never finalized, as the size and location of the church remained the sticking points.

    The mayor's comments come as officials from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America are using the furor over a proposed mosque and community center near Ground Zero to draw attention to their own effort to rebuild. The potential rebuilding of St. Nicholas has taken a distant back seat in terms of both political and media attention to the national uproar over plans for the proposed mosque.

    The disparity has led some to say that the city is green-lighting the space for the mosque, but shutting out the church that was in the area beforehand.

    Stephen Sigmund, a spokesman for the Port Authority, said the church "has and will always have the right" to rebuild the church. He said the two sides have begun negotiating on the terms again.

    Messages left for the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America weren't immediately returned Friday.

    Copyright ©2010 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.

  8. #98
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    As BPC has pointed out: It seems that, based on this 2008 report, the PA jumped the gun (at least to one degree or another).

    Or they were being really really really optimistic ...

    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1 View Post

    World Trade Center Report: A Roadmap Forward [pdf]

    INTRO (P. 4-5)

    The efforts of the past three months have produced the following results, which are critical to getting this rebuilding program on track:

    4. A series of agreements that will give the Port Authority greater control over delivery of the Vehicle Security Center, which will serve as a key access point to all of the commercial development on the WTC site.

    These agreements include: settling a seven-year old land claim that delayed the VSC’s construction ; acquiring full control over the VSC’s design ...

    [...]

    ISSUES RESOLVED (P. 19)

    Vehicle Security Center

    • Construction Sequencing and Funding of the Vehicular Security Center
    St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church – Land Rights Claim
    • 130 Liberty Street Abatement and Demolition
    • World Trade Center Police and Security Plans

  9. #99

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    Layout w/r/t the VSC. Probably outdated.


  10. #100
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    Port Authority Wants to Restart Talks with Greek Orthodox Church Destroyed on 9/11

    By Julie Shapiro

    The Port Authority could meet with St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church as soon as next week.


    St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church stood just south of the World Trade Center and was destroyed on 9/11
    (Flickr/darkfoxprime)


    LOWER MANHATTAN — The Port Authority hopes to end a 19-month stalemate with the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, which was destroyed on 9/11, by returning to the negotiating table as soon as next week.

    The Port and the church have been arguing for years over where and how to rebuild the house of worship, which was located just south of the World Trade Center site. The talks hit a snag last year, and the two sides haven’t spoken since.

    But as soon as next week, the Port Authority plans to meet with the church and representatives of the mayor’s office "to start the process" of hammering out a deal, said Chris Ward, executive director of the Port Authority, at a Community Board 1 meeting Monday night.

    Father Mark Arey, spokesman for the church, said Tuesday that the Port had not contacted him about a meeting, but he would be happy to participate in any "genuine dialogue with results."


    A rendering of Liberty Park.
    A new church for St. Nicholas could be
    incorporated into the plan.


    The disagreement started because the Port Authority needs the church’s land at 155 Cedar St. to build a vehicle security center for the World Trade Center, encompassing a belowground parking garage and loading dock. In 2008, the PA offered the church a site farther east, which is 50 percent larger, along with $20 million to rebuild there.

    But the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America was concerned about the and money transfers, said Arey, the archdiocese’s ecumenical officer.

    As the talks dragged on last year, Ward said he worried that the vehicle security center would fall behind schedule, so he broke off the negotiations and moved forward with the security center construction.

    The church’s plight attracted widespread attention over the summer, as politicians and pundits pointed out that the mosque at the nearby Park51 Islamic community center might be built before St. Nicholas had a new home.

    Now, Ward hopes to finally settle the issue. He envisions the church rising out of the new Liberty Park, a sloping swath of green space that will sit on top of the Vehicle Security Center.

    "Our hope is that we can successfully negotiate appropriate compensation," Ward said Monday. "If the church fails to negotiate in good faith…we would have to invoke some form of eminent domain."

    Arey said in a phone interview Tuesday that he, too, hopes to reach an agreement that would allow the church to rise at the World Trade Center site.

    "That act of hatred cannot be allowed to stand," he said, referring to the destruction of the church on 9/11. "We’re not just rebuilding a church. It’s a statement of faith, a statement of hope."

    A spokesman for Mayor Bloomberg said the city also wants the church rebuilt at the World Trade Center site.

    http://www.dnainfo.com/20101005/down...#ixzz11ZqaDUBq

  11. #101

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    USA Today
    December 6, 2010

    Church left out of 9/11 renewal

    By Martha T. Moore

    Video: Members of the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church and the archdiocese gathered at Ground Zero for a special vespers service. The church was destroyed on Sept. 11 and has not yet been approved for reconstruction by the Port Authority.


    A prayer service is held at the World Trade Center site by priests and congregation of St. Nicholas Church.


    Priest Mark Arey stands among items rescued from St. Nicholas Church when it was destroyed by the collapse of the World Trade Center.

    NEW YORK — Towers are rising again at the site of the World Trade Center, a place of devastation turned into a construction hub. But the cross-topped belfry of St. Nicholas Church isn't among them.

    Nine years after it was destroyed in the 9/11 terrorist attacks, the little Greek Orthodox church that stood across the street from the twin towers is farther away than ever from being rebuilt.

    Slow progress toward a new home halted last year when the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which controls the Ground Zero site, broke off discussions with the church over where and how a new church would be built.

    On Sunday, the eve of St. Nicholas Day, 70 families of the congregation gathered near the site to light candles and pray for a way to rebuild their spiritual home amid the office towers and memorial plaza taking shape. "It's not a political statement. This is our place, and we belong there," says Mark Arey, a priest and director of interfaith relations for the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America.

    Before the Port Authority pulled the plug in March 2009, the agency and the church had spent several years working on a plan for the church to be rebuilt a block from its original location. Each side says the other refused to come to terms. The Port Authority says the church wanted too much say in the design of a vehicle screening center underneath the new building. The church says the agency wouldn't finalize the swap of its original property for the new site.

    "After nine months of negotiations in which the demands of the Orthodox Church continued to increase over and above what we originally agreed to, we had to make a practical decision," says John Kelly, a Port Authority spokesman.

    To work on the vehicle screening center, the Port Authority has begun ripping up the 1,200-square-foot plot where the old church stood, though the agency has not bought the rights from the church to do so.

    'Back to the table'

    The stalemate is emblematic of the complexity of plans for rebuilding Ground Zero and shows the intense pressure to move forward on a project that has taken years longer than anticipated.

    The Port Authority says it sent a letter last month to the church, seeking to resume discussions to set a value on the church's land.

    "We really want to go back to the table with the Port Authority ... because I just don't think it's reasonable that the only house of worship destroyed on 9/11 would not be rebuilt," Arey says.

    When the twin towers were standing, they dwarfed little St. Nicholas. Founded in 1916, the church's home was a whitewashed 19th-century building that had once been a tavern. It sat across the street from the south tower of the Trade Center. It had a tiny congregation and was open only on Sundays and Wednesdays, when workers from the financial district sometimes stopped to light a candle or sit in peace.

    In the years after it was destroyed, a plan emerged for St. Nicholas to be rebuilt a block east of its original site in a park the Port Authority is building on top of its underground vehicle screening center, through which all traffic into the Trade Center complex will have to pass.

    In a preliminary deal announced in the summer of 2008, the Port Authority said it would cover the $40 million cost of the platform on which the church would be built and contribute $20 million to the cost of the church, in exchange for the church's original lot. In March 2009, the Port Authority cut off talks. The church will have to rebuild on its original site, the agency says, when the vehicle center is finished in 2013.

    The church says that's impossible, partly because the construction of the underground center is raising the church's site by 30 feet. "They're saying, 'Go back to your old space,' knowing full well that without years of planning, it's not feasible," says John Couloucoundis, president of the St. Nicholas congregation.

    In August, the church got a flurry of attention during the controversy over a proposal to build an Islamic center near the Trade Center site. When New York Gov. David Paterson, a Democrat, offered to help the developer find a site farther away, elected officials such as state Sen. Dean Skelos, a Republican, asked why there was no equivalent effort to help St. Nicholas.

    An odyssey

    The church has raised "a couple million" for a new building, though Arey says it has not launched a fundraising campaign. "It's hard to fundraise for something you don't have a design for."

    While worshiping at a Greek Orthodox cathedral in Brooklyn, the members continue to pay their dues, have meetings and gather annually at Ground Zero to celebrate St. Nicholas' feast day.

    The travails of St. Nicholas are — fittingly for a Greek church — an "odyssey," Couloucoundis says. "I hope, just like the original Odyssey, we end up where we're supposed to."

    Copyright 2010 USA TODAY

  12. #102
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Fat chance the church will prevail on this, another leftover from the Potato Head Regime ...

    St. Nick's vs. the PA

    NY POST
    By STEVE CUOZZO
    December 26, 2010

    The ugly dispute between the Port Authority and the Greek Orthodox Archdio cese over rebuilding St. Nicholas' Church, destroyed on 9/11, threatens to throw progress at the entire World Trade Center site into chaos -- and the church has mainly itself to blame.

    The archdiocese insists on having a new church at 130 Liberty St., where the old Deutsche Bank building is being demolished. The PA wants it at the original church site -- 155 Cedar St., 100 yards to the southwest. The church now plans a suit to force the PA to build at 130 Liberty and accuses the PA of "fraud" in breaking a "binding" agreement for the location.

    In fact, no signed agreement was ever reached -- mainly because of the archdiocese's ever-escalating demands.

    But a court ruling against the PA could force it to redesign an underground Vehicle Screening Center planned beneath 130 Liberty St. That's because steel the PA has ordered for the VSC couldn't support the church above it -- a structure three times larger than the original.

    Re-tooling the VSC would push back by at least another year the already delayed openings of the first two office towers (now set for 2013) and possibly of the Memorial Museum (2011). Why? The VSC will be the security checkpoint for vehicles making deliveries to anywhere on the WTC site. Trucks -- and possibly cars and buses -- couldn't enter without it.

    Moreover, the VSC will link to all of the site's notoriously interlocked infrastructure elements. Altering the current design of the steel "cage" would calamitously impact underground work now in progress by the PA and developer Larry Silverstein.

    No one wants to deny St. Nicholas' parishioners a new place to worship, but it ought to have been at 155 Cedar St. But then-Gov. George Pataki instead foolishly persuaded the PA and the archdiocese to put it on Liberty Street, inside a new public park nearer to the WTC site.

    The new St. Nicholas would also be bigger. The old, tiny church served fewer than 100 families. Its proposed replacement embraced the gigantism Pataki endorsed for other WTC-area features unrelated to the task of replenishing 14 million square feet of office space -- peripherals such as the new PATH terminal and the MTA's Fulton St. Transit Center.

    The grandiose church planned at 130 Liberty St. was described by The New York Times in July 2008 as a "domed marble complex" six times larger than the original. The PA was able to have it reduced from a proposed footprint of 6,800 square feet to a "mere" 4,000 square feet, compared with the original's 1,200.

    The PA and the church would have traded rights to the sites. The two sides spent four years trying and failing to nail down terms of the land swap and how much money the PA would put into church construction.

    For all its infamously sluggish bureaucracy, the PA bent over backward to satisfy the archdiocese. So did JP Morgan Chase, which in 2007 wanted to build an office tower on Liberty Street. To accommodate the church, it devised a "beer-belly" tower, with trading floors cantilevered over the 130 Liberty site.

    The archdiocese didn't complain about that plan, which was later dropped. But it did object to any future cantilever in March 2009, when it also upped the ante on other issues that the PA thought had been resolved. Among them, it wanted:

    * The church to stand 20 feet taller than the Memorial Museum Pavilion -- a request the PA had previously rejected.

    * Unconditional, all-at-once access to $20 million the PA had pledged for construction, rather than on a staged basis subject to completing the land-swap and awarding of job contracts.

    * The right to review the VSC plans and to have "approval" over any future changes to the facility -- absurd, given that security is the business of the PA and the NYPD.

    * Incredibly, rights to use the surrounding park for its own events and a say in how the park might be otherwise used.

    The archdiocese now claims it was merely asking to protect its interests. Given the PA's prior record of delay, that sounds reasonable. But sources not affiliated with the PA said that once the sides began trying to draw up an actual contract in 2008, the archdiocese was "incredibly aggressive" and repeatedly added new conditions.

    That left PA executive director Christopher Ward, who had to sort out loose ends left by his predecessors, in a pickle. By 2009, he had to order steel for the VSC to break the rebuilding paralysis, as well as to protect the PA from further liability for not finishing the infrastructure. (It's had to pay Silverstein huge sums for missing deadlines.)

    But no final agreement was in sight. Enough steel to support the church if a deal was ever struck would have cost the PA $20 million on top of the $20 million it had already committed -- a risk it couldn't afford. So Ward decided he had no choice but to get the ball rolling on the VSC immediately.

    Now, the church, having overplayed its hand, has flashed the lawsuit threat as its supposed trump card. It's probably out of luck getting 130 Liberty St. back -- but no court outcome is certain. For the sake of seeing a new World Trade Center, let's pray that reason prevails.

    Copyright 2010 NYP Holdings, Inc. All rights reserved.

  13. #103
    Build the Tower Verre antinimby's Avatar
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    Leave it up to Steve "pro-big establishment" Cuozzo to write that article with a clearly anti-church slant.

    I am glad the church is standing up for itself. If it didn't, you know the PA would have totally neglected them.

    $20 some million is just pocket change in the overall scheme of things at the site.

  14. #104
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    The church is going well beyond "standing up for itself" in this case. Why do they need a replacement facility, publicly funded, to hold 3 - 4 x the number of parishioners that ever visited the other St. Nicholas church? The Pataki-approved site brought us the potential travesty of the JP Morgan toilet in glass, something we're now spared.

    But no matter where on the site south of Liberty Street that St. N's will eventually call home, anyone looking at progress at the WTC site will see that any new construction on that block above the VSC is still a few years away. In hindsight, St. Nick's would probably have been wiser to sell their old plot to the PA and grab up another site a couple of blocks to the south. With a bit of forethought, for under $5 million just a couple of years ago they could have bought a nice plot a bit north that is 4 X the size of their original one.

  15. #105
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    Maybe they're looking to expand and grow. What is wrong with that?

    Before their building was very small and probably couldn't accommodate as many churchgoers. Why should they be cramped like before when there's no need to?

    Now with a clean slate and an opportunity to fix what was wrong before, they are perfectly correct to think of their future. With a bigger and better facility, they can have more breathing room and do more things.

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