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Thread: JFK Airport Terminal 5 - by Eero Saarinen | Renovation & Expansion - by gensler

  1. #61
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    NYC - Downtown


    Thanks for that info ^

    Central Terminal Complex,
    JFK International Airport

    New York, New York
    Design completed 1990


    Lead Designers:

    Henry N. Cobb
    Charles T. Young III

    International airport redevelopment and modernization

  2. #62


    I read that report (regarding investing 15b) and they recommend another runway at JFK and Newark. This would be hard to accomplish due to Jamaica bay etc. Possible, but it seems to me that it would be such a costly fight that the island option would end up being a better option Just need a foreign investor for that (China, Gulf).
    They put to bed the idea that SWF airport could be a 4th NY airport and there are no greenfield sites suitable.

    Regarding the Pei plan, the plan is nice but the design is dated. I see they kept the old terminals. This plan is still possible today I suppose given that the terminals stay. One would need to relocate the parking and roadways in the central terminal and build connectors. It would open up more space airside for passenger amenities and make things work correctly. JFK's terminals are all a bit on the small side IMO to give passengers the best possible experience regarding retail and other amenities.

    The nice thing about that would be the airtrain could function as an airside secure transit system between concourses and a new branch could be built connect the main terminal with the JFK-Jamaica line.
    Last edited by futurecity; February 27th, 2011 at 05:11 PM.

  3. #63


    JFK could easily accomodate two new runways on the 13-31 orientation. One would require landfill, but only in open water abutting the existing 13R-31L, not into any existing wetlands. The other could be done north of 13L-31R, were there are some existing cargo facilities, that could be relocated. I think the issue is local opposition, more than anything else.

    If they can do this, they can probably do without 4L-22R. If that can be shut down, they could use all the empty area west of 4R-22L to build remote concourses, which could supply a large number of new gates. These would be tied into the existing and rebuilt terminals by some sort of people mover system.

  4. #64


    Of course they can, but there would be a major fight to expand the runway into the bay because of wetland status and that construction would probably impact fish life or something like that due to even though there are no marsh/grass lands at that precise location. I'd say there are ways around that to build a runway with minimal impact to the fish. How about a runway on stilts? Something like that has been done before somewhere in the world.

    All in all, JFK is the best place to expand an airport barring something amazing like an off-shore island or a large piece of land coming on the market in a suitable location (not very likely unless one of the NJ military bases were to close). Newark is difficult due to cramped real estate and the port. I also think that Stewart could work, but I see no interest in investing the money into a potential 'train to nowhere' scenario given the 60 mile distance from manhattan. That would be a Dulles airport 'build it and they will come' scenario which strikes me as too risky for most politicians. A JFK with a layout similar to LAX, with a 2x2 runway parallell pair would be the best scenario. That could potentially allow the Laguardia traffic to be absorbed and that airport subsequently cosed to allow full utilization of JFK's arrival pattern. That would allow operations on the 13's/31s from both runways departure and arrivals without interfering with another airport's pattern.
    Last edited by futurecity; February 28th, 2011 at 11:45 AM.

  5. #65


    They should NOT close LGA. But it does need major reconfiguration. The subway also should be extended to LGA.

  6. #66


    You feel strongly, but I disagree. The addition of 2 runways at JFK would probably absorb LGA traffic and the boost in capacity that a JFK would recieve from the freeing up of airspace

    Reconfiguring LGA's terminals won't change its major problem, its short 2 intersecting runways, lack of expansion possibilities and its poor position relative to JFK.

    If you have capacity figures for an expanded JFK, and can prove that LGA is better to keep open rathen than having 1 fully utilized efficient operation at JFK, then I'll listen. Otherwise its just a sentimental opinion. LGA is an constrained operation and hampers JFK from utilizing any future runway additions to the maximum. With better ground rail links potentially in the future, the convenience of LGA would be minimized due to traffic congestion.

  7. #67


    I would reconfigure LGA to get rid of the intersecting runways, and I'd fully replace the terminals. At a minimum, I'd have two lengthened parallel (if close set) runways, and a new terminal.

    There is also a possible location for a third independent runway. But that would probably get some people up in arms.

  8. #68


    I don't see anything like that happening at LGA given the dense areas around, hence my point. Having 1 airport rather than two is probably a more marketable solution to residents.

    I see the airspace problem as too big a hurdle to overcome. JFK will be forever an impaired airport unable to reach its potential due to flight pattern interference from LGA. A one airport solution is far cleaner and with improved transit links, roads and terminals it wouldn't be a huge inconvenience for residents of Manhattan or Westchester.

    Think of it like this. Why waste billions expanding JFK runways if it can't reach its potential? Seems like a bad return on investment.

    I expect though that they will continue their short-sighted piecemeal airport planning.
    Last edited by futurecity; February 28th, 2011 at 01:07 PM.

  9. #69


    I think a lot of the airspace problems can be worked out by other means besides closing LGA. From what i remember, a lot of the problems are because of airspace being closed off for military purposes. I think that would need to be looked at closely.

    Also, by reconfiguring the runways, I think many of the crossing approach patterns could be eliminated. If done my way, almost all the runways would be on the 13-31 orientation, and given how the prevailing winds tend to work, thing would overwhelmingly be working on the runway 13s.
    Last edited by BBMW; February 28th, 2011 at 01:51 PM.

  10. #70


    I don't see that happening at all. LGA expansion doesn't seem to be a priority when looking at these plans.
    Last edited by futurecity; February 28th, 2011 at 04:34 PM.

  11. #71


    Where is? I haven't heard anyone talking about adding any new runways to the NY metro airports (although both LGA and JFK will be getting terminal work).

  12. #72


    There was a large plan released by a regional planning board that was commissioned by the port authority. Their conclusions recommend adding 1 or 2 runways to JFK and another at EWR. It is an comprehensive report that takes into account all alternatives, including an island airport which was deemed too expensive.
    All the data is on this page

    Another thing. The terminal work at JFK T4 is Delta's renovation, which is a travesty as they are altering the fantastic shopping area with security screen equipment installation. The whole feel of the building will be changed.

  13. #73

    Default Can't wait! Who's going?

    Take Off for the TWA Terminal This Weekend at Open House New YorkBy New York Observer | The New York Observer – Wed, Oct 12, 2011

    A curved ceiling and glass walls that lean out sharply onto a view of the runways are distinctive of the lounge …

    Matt Chaban, Observer staff
    A great deal of attention has been paid lately to vintage JFK. Thanks to that lovely show Pan Am, we got a glimpse of what Terminal 3 looked like in its glory days, rather than the leaking mess it had become in recent years.

    It was recently torn down so that Delta, which is expanding Terminal 4, could have more space to park planes—no, not a new terminal, just a bare strip of tarmac, a glorified airplane parking lot. (Maybe with the airport so congested, that's for the best. Another terminal would mean more planes everyday, wouldn't it?)
    Then there is the still stately Terminal 6, JetBlue's previous home (before it built the new 'T5,' which encircles architect Eero Saarinen's revered TWA Terminal, which was formerly used as Terminal 5.)

    Now Terminal 6 is also coming down, one soaring glass pane and concrete strut at a time. There has been much hand-wringing over this of late, thanks in no small part to the appearance of Christina Ricci in a blue stewardess' garb, but as is often the case with old buildings, it is too little, too late.
    And we don't even yet know what is replacing the thing.

    That leaves us with the TWA Terminal and the TWA Terminal alone. For those feeling the twinge of nostalgia a little too strongly right now (present company included), Open House New York has delivered a respite.

    This Sunday, October 16, Saarinen's swan-like masterpiece will be open to the public from 1:00 to 4:00. Unlike so many Open House events, there are no reservations, so the space is unlimited. Bring the kids, bring a date!

    Charles Kramer, an architect at Beyer Blinder Belle, who oversaw the renovation of the terminal, and James Steven, manager of JFK facilities at the Port Authority, will lead a talk starting at 1:00. They will be discussing the renovation and efforts to rehabilitate the space with commerce—as well as fielding angry questions about Terminal 6, The Observer imagines.

    Interior shown in a retrospective of the architect, Eero Saarinen. (AP/Balthazar Korab Ltd. via Walker Art Center …

    Those latter two have a lot in common. When people point to the destruction of Terminals 3 and 6 as a loss of historic airline architecture, the Port points to the unused, now-empty Terminal 5 as plenty. Not only is it the most iconic of the terminals, but the authority has had a hell of a time redeveloping the thing.
    It's given up on getting Jet Blue to use it as a fancy check-in area, which, let's face it, even the biggest architecture buff would probably bypass in the interest of getting to the gate five minutes faster.

    The latest plan is to turn the former Terminal 5 into a luxury hotel of some sort, maybe run by Andre Balazs, Donald Trump, or some other boldface developer. It might well be the coolest Ramada Inn ever built, but considering there have been no developments in the plan for almost a year, one wonders if it is not dead, especially with innovative Port Authority director Chris Ward headed for the exits.

    And so we are left with our world-renowned folly. If you'd like to get a look inside this weekend, check for details.

  14. #74


    What a bloody waste... I wonder what they could use this building for? I don't see a hotel working. Shops/Restaurants/Spa perhaps, but few passengers would go there given that it is not behind security. I'm not sure they'd make much money in that location.

    Maybe a museum of aviation or airport history or gallery of some kind? I hate seeing that thing just sit there unused.

  15. #75


    It's unused because it's obsolete. Instead of tearing it down, they just built around it. But it's a white elephant. Maybe at some point they'll figure out something to do with it. Maybe that will actually be useful.

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