Every transit system loses money, every one!The PATH train still loses money for the PA, and its still not entirely clear why the operation isn't given to NJ Transit, both are state agencies.
And NJ Transit does not operate the PATH because the Port Authority and Governor Rockefeller of New York agreed to let to the Port Authority purchase and operate the Hudson and Manhattan Rail Road in exchange for allowing the Port Authority to deviate from their mission (transportation) by going into the Real Estate Business in Lower Manhattan (World Trade Center).
The Port Authority operating the PATH system is a compromise to New Jersey for allowing Port Authority revenues to build Office Buildings in Lower Manhattan, nothing has changed. The World Trade Center will be rebuilt, the Port Authority thus will continue to control the World Trade Center and the PATH.
I agree. It is rather baffling that that all of the mass transit systems in this town are money losers. If the biggest city in the country, which can boast the biggest percentage of mass transit riders of any city, can't keep the systems in the black, how can anyone advocate for more public transit?
It just screams MASS mismanagement.
Actually, the NY subway covers a greater percentage of its costs with the fare than almost any other system in the world. The HK subway is the only one that I know of that actually makes a profit but it does so through land development schemes at its stations, an option that the TA doesn't have.
The commuter railroads are actually bigger money losers than the subway.
IMO most of it can be blamed on the unions rather than mis-management.
That is interesting. Have the Port Authority buy land around areas where they know they are going to improve service or change things around, then get developers in on teh deal to develop around it... they could have made a LOT of cash on teh Pavonia Newport area, but I don't know if they were around early enough to get in on that.....
As for the shared fare, the thing is, I don't think they are allowing a shared fare. You have to use a Metro, not a PATH card to get in, and you do not get the same discounts either. Metro is an additional 20% cash on the card if you spend more than $10? PATH is dicounted fare price overall (a trip is a trip, no cash value recorded on the card)....
I know why the PA took over operation of the PATH (it was a large loser even then) and EVERY transit system doesn't lose money - not in the way the PATH does. Up until a little over a year ago, the fare was just a$1 and was raised only because of NY officials constant complaining of the $1 fare that wasn't fare to New Yorkers (the city's airports bring in money that covers PATH losses).Originally Posted by STT757
The PATH is a very small system that would best be ran under NJ Transit, the states transportation agency. Let the PA focus on the ports and crossings, this was something that was basically forced on the agency...
What do you think the fare is for the Boston T ?..Up until a little over a year ago, the fare was just a$1 and was raised only because of NY officials constant complaining of the $1 fare that wasn't fare to New Yorkers (the city's airports bring in money that covers PATH losses).
The PATH is a very small system that would best be ran under NJ Transit, the states transportation agency
Just because the PATH fare is less than the NYC Subway's does not mean that the NYC Subway pays a larger portion of it's operating costs through it's fare box.
The PATH fare was and still is cheaper than the NYC Subway system because of several factors..
First the Federal Railroad Agency (FRA) which regulates both passenger and frieght operators in the country considers the PATH system a "commuter" operation and the NYC Subway a "Transit" system.
Two Different systems, two different operating rules, different Government Guidelines etc..
Most imporatantly two DIFFERENT UNIONS!!
The massive Pension plans of the NYC Transit (My Grand Father worked at the NYC Transit Coney Island yard as an Electrician) and other costs are considerably higher in NYC for the MTA.
The cost of doing business in NYC with the Unions and other issues is far greater than what the Port Authority faces in New Jersey from their Unions.
The State of NY was pressuring the Port Authority to raise their fares because of the heat the strap hangers group and other watch dog groups give them about the PATH being a better operation and having a cheaper fare.
The MTA is not run as efficiently as the Port Authority, that's clear. Corruption both from Management, Contractors and Union leaders is more rampant than what the Port Authority faces.
Also the HUGE size of the NYC Subway System and it's age is another drain on resources, coupled with the other problems I mentioned and it's no wonder the MTA is already planning to raise Subway fares AGAIN!
The PATH's newest rail car is 30 years old, the MTA is spending "Billions" on these new 142s and 143s etc. While they are a huge improvement over older cars, and break down less they are EXPENSIVE!
To use an old phrase comparing the NYC Subway to the PATH is comparing "Apples to Oranges", better to compare PATH to Boston's T, SEPTA or even PATCO.
PATH is much smaller per track mile, and has a small fleet of older cars.
And the point about NYC Airports subsidizing the PATH is meaningless since for the last 7 years (untill this year, thanks to Jetblue) EWR has been the busiest NYC airport, it's only a couple thousand off JFK's Numbers for '03.
Don't care, don't ride it. I do ride the PATH, and I also ride the subways and NJ Transit trains. The operation is better suited to NJ Transit than the PA. Let the PA worry about the ports.
The fare for the Boston T is $1 Dollar, just For your information.
Also the T uses the same type of rail cars as the PATH, they are identical systems. And neither are comparable to the NYC Subway system.
NJ would never go along with that unless the World Trade Center was purchased from the Port Authority, and all Port Authority obligations towards it's security etc turned over to someone else.The operation is better suited to NJ Transit than the PA. Let the PA worry about the ports.
However we both know that's not happening, Governor Rockefeller wanted the Port Authority to bring to fruition his dream of the World Trade Center in Lower Manhattan. That dream was realized, however to compensate for the tremendous amount of time and resources the Port Authority put into the construction, operation and now reconstruction of the World Trade Center the NY and NJ Port Authority board members agreed to take over and operate the Hudson and Manhattan railroad.
Since ownership and responsibilities to the World Trade Center by the Port Authority have not changed, neither will their obligations to operate and maintain the PATH system.
If they were to have gone ahead with the Dan Doctoroff sponsored "land swap" and had gotten out of the Real Estate business in Manhattan then a case could be made that they should also get out of the business of running a railroad, however it's now clear that the Governor of NY has committed the Port Authority to the World Trade Center's future (thus they will continue to operate the PATH).
The PATH and World Trade Center are both deviations from the Port Authority's mission, however neither the Governor of NY nor the Governor of NJ have any intention of changing the current Port Authority mission.
Operation of the PATH system is a responsibility the Port Authority took on as a result of an agreement between the Governor's of NY and NJ during the planning for the World Trade Center, NY agreed to the World Trade Center and PATH compromise. Governor Pataki and every Governor since Rockefeller has been fine with the compromise, it's a mutally beneficial agreement that both States are legally bound to unless as I mentioned the World Trade Center is sold and security turned over to someone else.
In fact both Governor Pataki and Mayor Bloomberg have voiced support to the plan to have the Port Authority "extend" PATH service to Newark Airport's rail link station, the Port Authority will use a combination of Port Authority revenues and Federal Airport Improvement funds to build the extension. This will benefit Lower Manhattan busineses by creating a direct connection from Lower Manhattan to a major International Airport, and best of all they will not have to touch any Federal Money except the $5 surcharge the FAA puts on airline tickets.
The cost to extend the PATH to Newark Airport's Rail link station is $525 Million, a bargain compared to other transportation projects in Lower Manhattan. As a comparison the reconfiguration of the South Ferry station for the NYC Subway is going to cost $400 Million, just to build a three track stub station.
Federal recovery money can be directed towards bridging Lower Manhattan to JFK and Long Island, with a price tag of $3-5 Billion they need to focus as much resources as possible to accomplish the goal of linking Lower Manhattan to JFK and Long Island.
Hopefully within the next few weeks Governor Pataki will unveil the plans, whether the proposed "Super Subway" or the new East River tunnel proposal.
Visual comparison of the PATH and Boston's T, thanks to NYCsubway.org
The PATH and Boston's Orange and Blue lines use the same cars, the system is roughly the same size. However the T's fare is still $1 Dollar, New Hampshire doesn't hassle them to raise the fare.
Umm, the Boston T has NOTHING to do with New York, and I repeat I am not interested. As far as NJ never agreeing to it, of course they wouldn't want to. Why give up an operation that is equally shared with NY? That doesn't mean NJ Transit isn't better suited for it....
NJ Transit is better conentrating on what they have now, and future projects (M.O.M). Instead of going through the headache of aquiring the PATH, and the mess intergrated the different Unions, Pension plans etc into one agency.
NJ Transit is still struggling to this day to integrate the many different rail road operations they inherited from Conrail, who had previously operated NJ's Commuter operations. Separate and competiting rail roads such as the Pennsylvania, Central RR of NJ, Erie and Lackawanna, Reading, NY Central etc all had separate competing rail roads in NJ.
NJ Transit with projects such as Secaucus Transfer, Montclair Connection, Mid-Town Direct/Kearny Connection, Alden plan etc are just trying to unify the systems that went bankrupt 40 years ago..
The Port Authority took over the PATH 14 years before NJ Transit was even created, the PA has since operated the system for over 30 years.
They have the expertise to run the system, not NJ Transit.
NJ Transit runs a long haul commuter operation, the Light Rails are operated by contracted companies (except the Newark Subway), NJ Transit does not have the man power nor funding to take on the PATH.
And I mentioned the Boston "T" fare because of complaints of the PATH's fare being lower than NYC's SUbway, I was just trying to point out that the problem is not that the PATH fare is too low but rather the MTA fare is too high!
The T in Boston just (Jan. 4th) raised its fare to $1.25.
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To me, the comparison is not particularly apt.
I was comparing the PATH to the T's Orange and Blue lines since they utilize the same equipment, the map you posted shows the Silver line which is a BUS line!
The Green line is a Light rail, as is the red line. Correct?..
The Orange and Blue lines are comparable to the PATH both in equipment, and network.
I don't even know why the Silver line is listed on that map, buses don't count!
The State of Taxachusets must be looking for additional revenues to pay some Central Artery debt, putting highway debt burden on transit riders.The T in Boston just (Jan. 4th) raised its fare to $1.25.
I was wondering what the Silver Line was. I know the Green Line is light rail, but I don't think the Red is.
I once took a shuttle flight from LaGuardia to Logan to visit an advisor at Harvard who'd helped my sister get into Georgetown, so with no other method of transportation available to us (my mom doesn't drive well) we took the T. The service to and from the airport is remarkably similar to that at JFK pre-AirTrain: shuttle buses among the terminals, often with very looooong waits.
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