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Thread: Javits Center Expansion (& Cancelled Jets Stadium)

  1. #61

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    March 26, 2004

    Facing Long Road, West Side Makeover Gets a Big Sendoff

    By CHARLES V. BAGLI


    A drawing of the proposed Jets stadium and expanded Javits Convention Center.


    From right, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, Gov. George E. Pataki and Woody Johnson, owner of the Jets, at a news conference yesterday.

    Amid klieg lights, heavy security, a model and a billboard-size rendering, Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, Gov. George E. Pataki and Woody Johnson, the owner of the Jets, finally announced a $2.8 billion project yesterday that had been years in the making: the expansion of the city's convention center on the far West Side and the construction of a 75,000-seat stadium for the football team.

    The fact that they could get state and city officials in the same room at the Jacob K. Javits Convention Center, along with some union leaders, hotel owners and real estate executives, was a step forward after years of talk, false starts, squabbling and back-room trade-offs. The event was a result of the single-mindedness and perhaps the naïveté of the deputy mayor for economic development, Daniel L. Doctoroff.

    The stadium and convention center expansion are the crucial components of the city's bid for the 2012 Olympics, which Mr. Doctoroff cobbled together before he entered city government. He has sought to ram them through the usual political and economic barriers like a fast-moving train, but he still has a long way to go. The announcement yesterday was his way of saying the train was leaving the station.

    The project he and the Pataki administration announced yesterday still needs approval from the State Legislature, where Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver said yesterday that he had "serious concerns and reservations." Mr. Silver said he opposed the city's plans to use $350 million from the Battery Park City Authority to help pay for the Javits expansion.

    Elements of the projects also need approval by the City Council, where some members are angry that the city would spend $300 million on a stadium when it cannot find enough seats for schoolchildren. And everyone expects that critics, ranging from neighborhood groups to Broadway theater owners and Cablevision, will file lawsuits, a tactic that held up the redevelopment of Times Square for nearly a decade.

    One of Mr. Doctoroff's biggest challenges may be in trying to keep his ostensible allies - the hotel industry, various state officials and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority - on board his speeding train. The transportation agency wants to be able to sell development rights that it says are worth $400 million to $600 million for allowing the city to build over its railyards. But those are the same development rights Mr. Doctoroff wants to sell to pay for a western extension of the No. 7 subway line.

    "This is a local train, and it's going to make many stops," Assemblyman Adriano Espaillat vowed. Mr. Espaillat, a Democrat from Washington Heights, supports the Javits expansion, but opposes the stadium.

    But for at least one morning in front of the television cameras, all the principal actors were singing together in harmony at the Javits Center. That was a lot more than anyone accomplished for previous stadium dreams, including Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani's failed four-year quest to build a new home for the Yankees.

    Mayor Bloomberg unveiled what he called a "historic plan to transform and modernize" the city's convention industry by creating a half-mile convention corridor along 11th Avenue, from 30th to 40th Streets. The state and the city would put up $1.3 billion for the projects, while the Jets said they would invest $800 million in the stadium.

    "It truly marks a milestone," an ebullient Mr. Doctoroff said yesterday, "not only in the history of the far West Side, but for the entire city."

    The proposal would nearly double the size of the Javits Convention Center by expanding it north to 40th Street, enabling the center to attract larger and more varied conventions and trade shows. The proposal also calls for building a convention hotel and ballroom on 42nd Street.

    The $1.4 billion expansion would be covered by a temporary hotel surcharge of $1.50 a night, which would raise $500 million, and by $350 million each from the state and the city. The mayor said he expected a developer to invest $200 million in the hotel, although convention experts note that convention hotels are usually heavily subsidized and a developer is unlikely to invest such a large sum.

    The city said its $350 million share would come from reserve funds from the Battery Park City Authority, an arrangement that would seem to violate Mr. Doctoroff's longstanding promise to pay for West Side projects with new tax revenues generated in the area, not with existing municipal money. Every year, the authority gives the city an average of $55 million from surplus funds, although this year the sum is about $151 million because of a special refinancing program, according to the authority.

    Mr. Doctoroff said that the state was releasing money from Battery Park reserve funds, enabling the city to use that money for the Javits Center. The city, however, would continue to receive an annual disbursement from the authority, he said.

    City and state officials also portrayed the stadium as a critical element of the Javits expansion; they contend that the $1.4 billion stadium, with its retractable roof, would double as a 200,000-square-foot convention hall and possibly as an Olympic forum if the city wins its bid for the 2012 Games. The state and the city will contribute $300 million to cover the cost of the retractable roof and a platform over the railyards on which the stadium would be built.

    The Javits expansion and the stadium are tied to a $3.7 billion plan to rezone the far West Side for residential and commercial development, to extend the subway and to create more parks.

    Much of the opposition to the West Side projects has focused on the stadium, which even supporters regard as the Achilles' heel of the redevelopment plans. Critics say the connection to the Javits Center is rather tenuous and merely an attempt to make the stadium politically palatable.

    One opposition group held its own news conference a block away from the Javits Center in a basement meeting room next to a small park.

    "We're here to tell the mayor and the governor that this is our neighborhood and we do not want a stadium," said Christine Quinn, a member of the City Council and the Hell's Kitchen/Hudson Yards Alliance. "It's not a plan for our neighborhood; it's a plan for the Jets." Given the scarcity of public resources, she said the stadium was a bad public investment, likely to discourage investment and produce traffic congestion and pollution.

    The Alliance comprises mainly elected officials from the West Side. But they have been joined by some potentially powerful allies, including Gerald Schoenfeld, chairman of the Shubert Organization, which operates 15 Broadway theaters and actively opposes the stadium, and executives from Cablevision, which owns Madison Square Garden, the Knicks and the Rangers. Cablevision, which opposes the stadium because of the potential competition for circuses, concerts, Ice Capades and other sports events, has also hired an environmental lawyer to look at the project.

    Ms. Quinn vowed to take the fight to City Hall, Albany and "the courts if necessary."

    A second opposition group, the West Side Coalition, also vowed to fight the stadium as well as many other aspects of the redevelopment. "Just because they have now announced the stadium for the umpteenth time, that does not make the financing real, nor ensure its success," said John Fisher, a spokesperson for the coalition. "The West Side is littered with many megaprojects that did not happen despite the hype of politicians, the press and corporations."

    Aside from his critics, Mr. Doctoroff must still spend time dealing with the very people who say they support the stadium and the Javits Center expansion. The city failed to strike a deal with Peter S. Kalikow, chairman of the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, over development rights for the use of the railyards in time for the Javits Center announcement. Mr. Kalikow, who was on vacation in Florida, did not attend.

    The hotel industry has also made it clear that it will be furious if the Pataki administration fails to get legislation passed in Albany this spring that would allow the Javits Center expansion to begin construction as quickly as the stadium. In the past, some hotel owners feared that the Javits would be left behind as the city pushes for the stadium.


    The Stadium Touches Off a Typical New York Debate

    By ANDREA ELLIOTT

    The 75,000 seats of the city's proposed Jets stadium might barely contain the myriad, often unexpected views offered by New Yorkers yesterday about the project.

    David Rasted is not a sports fan, but he loves it: "Anything to improve the area," he said between sips of black coffee at a Starbucks near his home in Chelsea. "Everything gets a face-lift."

    Eric Hoppe, a self-described "football fan and Republican" who works on Wall Street, hates it. "It's greedy," he said about plans by the city and state to invest $300 million each in the stadium.

    Some had never heard of the stadium project, let alone a team that has historically lived in the shadow of the older, more widely cheered Giants.

    "Who are the Jets?" asked a 42-year-old film producer as she sat on a bench on Broadway munching an artichoke pizza.

    But if one thing aligns New Yorkers to the Jets, it may be the team's long odyssey as somebody's tenant. In its 44 years, the team has moved from Harlem to Flushing and then to its current home, the Meadowlands Sports Complex in New Jersey, as a tenant of the Giants.

    The irony that this team, whose singular moment of glory came with a Super Bowl win in 1969 and who once held a record for no-shows by fans, could come home to a $1.4 billion stadium was not lost. But the fans preferred to speak kindly about the homecoming.

    "They need a new identity," said Burton Rocks, 31, a writer of sports books from Long Island, where the Jets have a strong fan base. "They play out of Giants Stadium, and it will always be Giants Stadium."

    The city's announcement yesterday was greeted with more skepticism than cheering around the city. People questioned why, in such trying economic times, the city and state would pledge hundreds of millions of dollars for a football stadium.

    "I think it's spending where we don't need to spend," said Barbara Somers, a retired cookbook author in her 60's who lives on the Upper West Side. "We have a budget deficit, and that's not going to help."

    Sarah Katz, a retired secretary who was choosing tangerines outside Fairway on Broadway, shook her head at mention of the project. "I think it's a waste of money," she said. "I don't think we'll need a ballpark in the middle of the city."

    Limited parking and more stringent policing at the proposed site might kill a long-cherished football game tradition: tailgating, with its barbecues and beer.

    "I think it takes a lot of fun out of the game if you can't have the parking lot tailgating party before the game," said David Leslie, 34, a sales representative from Westchester.

    But fans would have alternative methods of travel to the stadium on the Hudson River. "If you really want to party, you come up by boat," said Frank Ford, the manager and bartender of O'Farrell's Bar and Restaurant at 10th Avenue and 33rd Street, who wore a Jets tie.

    Along with other local merchants, Mr. Ford hopes the stadium will breathe new life into the ghostly area, which currently sees little pedestrian traffic.

    "It's like a cemetery," said Jerry McGuckin, 65, a carpenter nursing a beer at O'Farrell's. "You don't see any banks down here. It's nothing but trucks. It's a dead area."

    Perhaps a New York homecoming will also revitalize the team's fan base, said a group of electricians as they ate fast food in a public atrium above the Wall Street station of the No. 2 and 3 subway lines.

    Admittedly, the four men were less interested in the Jets than they were in the work a new stadium might provide.

    "Times have been slow for us, so any new work is welcome," said Tim Murphy, 34, of Monmouth County, N.J. He and the other men belong to the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, so a large job like this would likely involve them, they said. But the men said they were not getting too excited. They had seen too many proposals stall.

    "There are too many jobs on the books that are ideas," said Larry Garelli, 37, of Long Island. "Who takes it seriously till it happens?"

    Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

  2. #62

  3. #63

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    March 26, 2004

    NYC

    So, It's Jets Versus Striped Bass?

    By CLYDE HABERMAN

    REMEMBER the old joke about the eternally optimistic boy? Nothing could faze him, not even waking up on Christmas Day to find a lump of horse dung in his stocking. "There's a pony around here somewhere," he said brightly.

    The skeptical flip side to that is pure New York. It came to mind yesterday on the long walk from the nearest subway stop to the Jacob K. Javits Convention Center, by the Hudson River. "There's striped bass around here somewhere," the thought ran.

    Striped bass, for those with dim memories of the 1980's, helped doom Westway, the road that was supposed to run along Manhattan's western fringe. The Westway project died for several reasons, but the poor bass was what fired up many opponents, especially environmentalists. They warned that the Hudson's stock of that fish would be imperiled.

    You just know that someone is already searching for striped bass or its equivalent to kill plans, formally announced yesterday, for a greatly expanded Javits center and an adjoining stadium for the football Jets, currently of New Jersey. Before this ambitious project can take wing, it will face environmental scrutiny, zoning studies, legislative reviews and - count on it - court fights.

    Cue the bass.

    Between eternal-sunshine pronouncements from the plan's supporters and world-is-ending gloom from the opponents, you had a splendid example yesterday of what makes New York at once so joyful and maddening. Spirited debate is the lifeblood of the city. But it is often also what keeps anything from ever getting done here.

    First, the negative voices, a mixture of politicians and West Side community leaders who called the stadium idea fatally flawed.

    Don't misunderstand, they said yesterday; expanding the Javits center is fine. But "responsible development" requires dropping the stadium, officially known as the New York Sports and Convention Center. It would, they warned, bring in too many cars, increase pollution, disrupt the neighborhood and potentially throw thousands out of their homes (even though the sports center would be built over state-owned rail yards, where presumably only the homeless sleep).

    In their criticism were echoes of arguments that have been used to defeat or endlessly delay countless projects requiring government involvement. It is almost as if the very will to build on a grand scale has been numbed.

    Whether the issue is an essential water filtration plant to go underneath Van Cortlandt Park or a desperately needed subway to run along Second Avenue, the civic motto sometimes seems to be, "Don't just do something - stand there!"

    You have to wonder what would have happened if Calvert Vaux and Frederick Law Olmsted had worked in today's political climate. Would Central Park have come into being? More than likely, it would have ended up a fraction of its present size. People were displaced for that project, too.

    ON the other hand (this is one of those columns with lots of hands), some were left cold by rosy assurances from Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg and Gov. George E. Pataki that the stadium concept is, unlike the Jets, a sure winner.

    For one thing, the politicians themselves said little yesterday about the stadium as a lure to bring the 2012 Summer Games to New York. Perhaps Olympic dreams have faded along with the international spirit of "We are all New Yorkers" that prevailed right after 9/11.

    Another issue is whether most Jets fans, suburbanites in the main, will leave cars behind and take the promised extension of the No. 7 subway line to the stadium. The Jets say yes, based on surveys. But look at Yankee and Shea Stadiums, both with excellent train connections. Only one fan in four takes mass transit to those ballparks.

    There is yet another question: has New York pride suffered for lack of a football team? Hardly. Since 1984, when the Jets absconded to New Jersey, the city has enjoyed a renaissance, physically and spiritually.

    As for cold cash, studies suggest that sports franchises are poor engines of economic development. Should financing arrangements for the $1.4 billion stadium go awry, we might have to rename this team the New York Debts.

    In unveiling the project, Mr. Bloomberg began by saying, "If you don't have a smile on your face today, you're never going to have one."

    It sounded almost like a curse. Torn between the sunshine boys and the doom-and-gloomers, many New Yorkers were too conflicted yesterday to smile.

    Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

  4. #64

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    (NY Post)

    J-E-T-S!!!

    March 26, 2004 -- Mayor Bloomberg and Gov. Pataki scored yesterday with their plan to build a new stadium for the New York Jets on Manhattan's West Side and to significantly enlarge the Javits Convention Center.

    The plan complements Mayor Mike's vision of an urban oasis between 30th and 43rd streets, west of 7th Avenue - complete with subway service via an expansion of the No. 7 line.

    Ambitious? Absolutely.

    Pricey? Better believe it: The two plans together are already pushing $6 billion - and not all the costs are in.

    But New Yorkers should be on their feet cheering.

    Let's face it: New York, the most important city in the nation, lacks a professional football team, with both the New York (in name only) Jets and New York (ditto) Giants having absconded to the New Jersey swamps years ago.

    Gotham is supposed to be the cultural Capital of the World, with the best theater, art, cuisine, sports - anywhere.

    How better to complete the line-up than with a first-class stadium?

    The facility will also be used for other big-ticket sports events, as well as - thanks to a retractable roof - additional convention-center space. Other amenities, such as a museum, are also planned.

    Plus, the Javits Center space will soar, enabling large conventions to bring their big bucks to the city. A 1,500-room hotel will provide ample accommodations.

    Now add in Mayor Mike's "Hudson Yards" plan - including the stretching of the No. 7 line to 34th Street and 11th Avenue, parkland and other redevelopment - for an area that is currently, to be blunt, a veritable wasteland.

    Put it all together, and it's hard not see the Bloomberg-Pataki-Jets vision as an enormous revitalization of a huge swath of prime Manhattan real estate.

    Indeed, it is not hard to imagine the final product dwarfing the nearby 42nd Street redevelopment - which, itself, has been a tremendous shot in the arm to the city.


    Make no mistake: We're concerned about the price-tag. Much of the combined undertaking is to be financed with public dollars - to be repaid, theoretically, with tax revenues generated by the new development.

    If that doesn't work out, taxpayers are on the hook: New levies may be needed. But there is little worthwhile that comes risk-free.

    Meanwhile, the nattering nabobs of NIMBY-ism are in full throat: "We will fight until we defeat this ill-conceived plan," said the area's City Council member, Christine Quinn.

    Blah, blah, blah.


    Again, it's hard to see this project as anything but a tremendous bright spot in Gotham's future.

    And the success that Bloomberg and Pataki have in moving it forward will be a measure of their ability to get serious things done in this city.

    Now if the Jets' offense can put a few more points on the board, and the defense remains tough . . .


    ************************************************** **


    WE'LL MAKE GIANTS GANG-GREEN WITH ENVY

    By FIREMAN ED

    March 26, 2004 -- I AM so fired up. Guess what: There's a new kid in town. Shout it to the world! Those days of being second-class citizens are over!

    We're gonna have the NY on our helmet, and it's gonna mean something. We're the NEW YORK Jets. Tell the Giants to take the NY off their helmet. We can't wait to get out of the Meadowlands; I can't say those words [Giants Stadium]. We didn't want to go there in the first place. You know what's so powerful about Jet fans? Jet fans never had their own stadium, yet they always supported their team, even if they had to go hours and hours to the Meadowlands.

    Now, they're gonna have the opportunity to play in New York, in the city, where they're gonna have options. They're gonna be able to take the railroad right there. They can go by car, and that walk is gonna be a proud walk. They're gonna look up and see that NY. That walk, if it's a mile or two miles, it'll be worth that walk. The NEW YORK Jets at Hudson Yards! What better?

    I think the Jets' future is bright. If they surround our franchise quarterback [Chad Pennington] with the right weapons, we're not only gonna win a Super Bowl, we're gonna be hosting a Super Bowl! Now that we're gonna have a retractable dome, why wouldn't they have the Super Bowl played here?

    We've tried to create a home field by doing the J-E-T-S chant. What would be better, just before we leave, than to win a world championship in the Meadowlands? The Giants won two world championships while we're there. They're one up on us. I want us to win a world championship before we leave and then I want to spank them and say, "Now we're going home!"

    When all is said and done, the true fan is there to be at the football game. Thank you, Woody Johnson and Jay Cross.

    Fireman Ed Anzalone is the Jets' No. 1 fan and the pride of College Point, Queens. As told to Steve Serby.

  5. #65
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    What's the word on if there is a green roof planned for the convention center...that is what it appears to have in the picture. If so, amazing!

  6. #66

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    New York Newsday
    March 25, 2004

    Stadium plan already draws fire

    BY ERROL A. COCKFIELD, JR

    State Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver Thursday threw up the first political roadblock to the multi-billion-dollar city and state plan to build a West Side stadium for the Jets and expand the Javits Center.

    Gov. George Pataki and Mayor Michael Bloomberg were in a celebratory mood Thursday in announcing their plans at Javits, but Silver, in his strongly worded statement, said he had serious reservations about the sweeping redevelopment project, especially its reliance on the use of Battery Park City Authority funds to finance it.

    "I will review this complex proposal carefully, paying close attention to its financing and the burden it poses for city taxpayers," the Lower East Side Democrat said.

    Silver's comments signaled the first major official obstacle for the project, which would require the backing of the State Legislature. The $2.8-billion project must secure an array of complex financing and survive Albany horse-trading.

    "If we don't get that approval, there won't be a Javits expansion," said Daniel Doctoroff, deputy mayor for economic development.

    City and state officials said the initial phase, which will link the expanded convention center with the new stadium, will cost $1.4 billion.

    Necessary initiatives include a re-crafting of Javits operating laws to allow expansion, an extension of existing Javits bonds to generate a $350-million state financing commitment and the creation of a $1.50 per night hotel tax, expected to raise $500 million.

    The proposal that drew the most fire calls for the city to finance its contribution by borrowing $350 million that would be paid for by revenue generated through the Battery Park City Authority. The plan calls for the city to tap into a funds generated from landlords through leases and payments in lieu of taxes that have been traditionally directed toward supporting low-income housing.

    Critics fumed, citing assurances by Doctoroff that no existing city tax resources would go to the project. Doctoroff has said payments for city borrowing would be offset by an estimated $225 million each year in new tax revenue.

    "You're essentially taking the tax base of a huge chunk of Manhattan and using it to pay for this project, which means that money won't be used to pay for city services," said John Fisher of the West Side Coalition civic group, which is fighting the plan.

    Silver said he would not support the use of Battery Park City funds for any purpose other than revitalization of lower Manhattan. A spokesman for Silver's State Senate counterpart, Majority Leader Joseph Bruno (R-Brunswick), would not comment, saying the Senate was waiting on an official proposal.

    The expanded convention center and stadium would transform the West Side from 30th to 42nd Streets. Along with the 75,000-seat stadium, it would feature 1.5 million square feet of meeting space and a 1,500-room hotel.

    The Jets have said they would pay $800 million for the arena, while the city and state have each committed to $300 million for a construction platform and a retractable roof. The stadium would house the 2012 Olympics if the city wins its bid.

    Doctoroff said the city would pay for its portion by issuing securities on payments in lieu of taxes and rental income. Charles Gargano, chairman of the Empire State Development Corp., said the state would pay for its portion through borrowing estimated to cost $20 million a year in debt payments.

    Officials also heralded the return of the Jets from New Jersey's Meadowlands, and team owner Woody Johnson noted the last time the team played in Manhattan was in the Polo Grounds in 1963. "I can promise today, once we come back, we're not leaving," he said.

    The sports and convention center is the centerpiece of a proposed redevelopment that includes expansion of the No. 7 subway. Thursday's announcement came after the city, state, Jets and the Metropolitan Transportation Authority, which owns the rail yards over which the stadium would be built, reached consensus on their roles.

    Copyright 2004 Newsday, Inc.

  7. #67

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    Those tower heights are tight!



    Since we have become so accustomed to these models, is it to far fetched to assume that those are the determined building envelopes?

  8. #68

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    From the rendering at the top of the page, you wouldn't think that any of the buildings would be remotely close to the ESB. I think that the rendering and the models represent different versions of the plan.

  9. #69

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenius
    From the rendering at the top of the page, you wouldn't think that any of the buildings would be remotely close to the ESB. I think that the rendering and the models represent different versions of the plan.
    The rendering at the top of the page is and old one, released before the models and renderings of the new westside plan came out...


    (Daily News)

    Mike mocks W. Side Jets worry

    By MICHAEL SAUL

    Traffic? What traffic? Residents? What residents?

    Mayor Bloomberg mocked West Siders' complaints that a new Jets stadium would clog their streets and destroy their neighborhood, sparking outrage among community groups and local politicians.

    "There's nothing on the streets on Sundays. I love people that say, 'There's going to be too much traffic.' Too much? Right now there's nothing. I mean, come on! Let's get serious here," Bloomberg thundered on his WABC-AM radio show.

    In a second interview on ESPN radio, Bloomberg said: "There's nobody that lives there. You've got an area where there's no economic activity. The tax revenues keep coming down and down. There's a bunch of empty buildings and chop shops and parking garages."


    Bloomberg's remarks came one day after he and Gov. Pataki unveiled a $2.8 billion deal to build a 75,000-seat stadium for the Jets and expand the Javits Center. The city and state will each pay $300 million for the stadium portion of the project.

    Bloomberg also said yesterday that Jets' fans could tailgate in midtown Manhattan.

    "You can still do it here," he said. "There are plenty of parking places available on Sundays."

    West Siders were apoplectic.

    "I can only assume the mayor is speaking of the West Side of Bermuda," said Jean-Daniel Noland, who lives in the neighborhood. "I'm losing respect. I don't know why he's saying these things. They're not true."

    The current traffic situation is so bad, Noland said, "You can't hear yourself talk on the street. The windows rattle."

    Elke Fears, who also lives on the West Side, said Ninth Ave. is extremely congested on weekdays and on weekends.

    "There are days, many days, every week, you can barely cross the street," she said.

    Councilwoman Christine Quinn (D-Manhattan) called the mayor's comments "asinine."

    "Clearly Mayor Bloomberg must spend all his time on the East Side because he has no idea what life on the West Side is like," she said.

    Jennifer Falk, a Bloomberg spokeswoman, said Quinn "sounds confused."

    "It's preposterous to suggest that there is always bumper-to-bumper traffic in this area on a Sunday afternoon," Falk said. "She should at least try to stick to the facts."

  11. #71

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    It's amusing how both sides of an issue engage in hyperbole. Traffic rattled wiondows? Football tailgating on the streets in midtown?

    At some point, someone is going to have to use availabe data, and come up with the expected number of vehicles and decide what to do about it.

    The good thing is that the traffic will only happen once a week, but that's also the bad thing. It's a Sunday event, and many people are just not going to hop on mass transit to go to a football game. I've gone to many baseball and football games at Shea and Yankee Stadium (the Giants once played there) - I've never driven to a baseball game, but I've never taken mass transit to a football game.

    The best case from the data is that 75% will drive. Figure 4 people to a car, that's 14,000 cars.

  12. #72

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp
    It's amusing how both sides of an issue engage in hyperbole. Traffic rattled wiondows? Football tailgating on the streets in midtown?

    At some point, someone is going to have to use availabe data, and come up with the expected number of vehicles and decide what to do about it.

    The good thing is that the traffic will only happen once a week, but that's also the bad thing. It's a Sunday event, and many people are just not going to hop on mass transit to go to a football game. I've gone to many baseball and football games at Shea and Yankee Stadium (the Giants once played there) - I've never driven to a baseball game, but I've never taken mass transit to a football game.

    The best case from the data is that 75% will drive. Figure 4 people to a car, that's 14,000 cars.
    If this were in Queens, maybe that would be more accurate. But can you seriously expect the "typical" amount of people to drive into Manhattan for these games? I think the word is out by now that parking here is a headache. There will be many alternatives set up by then: ferry service, park and rides, increased service from Metro North, NJT, subways.

    I fully expect that every available parking space will be taken anywhere near a stadium. People love their cars, but I think that common sense comes in when it comes to driving into the city.

    A study on other stadiums in downtown locations would be useful...but only cities on an island or as dense as NYC would truly be representative.

  14. #74

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    I use Yankee Stadium as a model. It has excellent mass-transit access, and is generally a pain in the ass to drive to. I was surprised to read that 75% drive to Yankee games; I would have thought that at least half took mass transit.

    If 75% is the reality at a baseball game, it will not be less at a football game. There is a difference in going to a Wednesday night baseball game and a Sunday afternoon football game, and it's not the convenience of getting there.

  15. #75

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    You may be wrong about that.....whenever I went to a Yankee game knowing it was a sellout I took mass transit.....Every Jets game will be a sellout and the stadium will hold roughly 20,000 more people

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