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Thread: New Penn Station (Moynihan Station)

  1. #1846

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    On the subject of retail at a new Penn Station:

    Retail at a railroad hub isn't always the same as a shopping mall at a railroad hub. It'll depend on how 1 million sq ft is distributed throughout the complex.

    There's plenty of retail at GCT, but when you enter, you know you're in a railroad terminal, not Roosevelt Mall.

  2. #1847

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    I agree that a mall won't be bad. There isn't room for new large department stores to build. Therefore, this could house a Nordstrom's, a Harrods, etc.

  3. #1848

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    I have absolutely no problem with a "mall" at Penn Station. The concept works well in every major world city I've been to in Asia, Australia, and Europe. The knee jerk reaction against it in NY is parochial at best. Hell, even Chicago has some great "malls" on N. Michigan Ave. Both Boston and SF have malls in the urban core that work quite well.

  4. #1849
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Well ... hoping you enjoy yourselves walking in circles at the new mall.

    Just make damned sure that it looks good from the outside.

  5. #1850

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    Are you sure that the newoval-shaped Masison Square Garden will interfere with the design of the glass atrium-like structure to be built in the middle of the Post Office? If so, renderings of the new Garden need to be released soon.

  6. #1851

  7. #1852
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    From that ^ article:

    According to a source familiar with the plan, once the arena is moved (anticipated to occur in 2011), the current Penn Station would be unearthed and covered with a glass roof, which would let sunlight reach the ground floor and concourses. The state will choose between two plans: One would put large 90-story towers on the north and south sides of the block; the other would put a million-square-foot shopping center there and disperse the remaining development rights to nearby parcels. The state and developers have taken to calling the redone Penn Station “Moynihan East” and the converted Farley building “Moynihan West,” although it is questionable whether Amtrak will change its nomenclature from “Penn Station.”

    The plan, while lacking any architectural renderings, has drawn lukewarm reactions from preservationists.

    “I think it would be fantastic to do two train stations, and I think moving Madison Square Garden can be done, but it is up to the state to make sure the public does win,” said Ms. Breen. “You don’t want Moynihan East to become a shopping mall and Moynihan West to become a lobby to Madison Square Garden, which I think is what it is becoming.”

  8. #1853
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    There will actually be three stations,

    Moynihan West (Farley Post Office), main tenant will be NJ Transit.

    34th Street concourse, where new Hudson Tunnel will terminate. 6-8 tracks underneath 34th between Macy's and the current Penn Station. This will be the sole domain of NJ Transit.

    Moynihan East (current Penn Station), main tenants will be Amtrak, LIRR, NJ Transit? and Metro North?

    Getting these three stations tied together in a way that is pratical, easy to navigate and understand is going to be real tricky. However if done right it could possibly be the Mid-Town version of the World Trade Center Transit hub with it's East-West connector from the Winter Garden/World Financial Center, Calavatrava World Trade Center PATH Hub, Fulton Street Transit complex.

    For the Mid-town hub they need to connect with a large underground concourse Moynihan West-Moynihan East - 34th Street NJ Transit station as well as Macy's, PATH and the B, D, F, N, Q, R, V, W trains. There used to be a hidden corridor connecting the PATH with Penn Station that was closed a long time ago. A new modern underground concourse connecting all the areas train lines as well as a new Garden and Macy's is what's needed.

  9. #1854

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    Interesting perspective from an article I saw floating around:

    "I think a new building is a potential problem. Show me a team that has had success in their new buildings and I'll show you two that have had serious troubles selling out since the move.

    Show me a team that got a new building and didn't raise prices because of it and I'll show you a team that made that happen by taking away prime tickets for fans in seats by putting luxury boxes in their places. They kept the average seat prices down by creating the extra 1500 to 2000 seats in the farthest reaches of the buildings often with obscured views. Sure the prices didn't go up, but your 50 feet further than you were before with much less leg room because of the increased angle of seating from row to row.. Thats not a tradeoff I want.

    The other point which needs to be made is that Madison Square Garden doesn't have to move or be affected at all in order for Penn Station to be renovated and upgraded ( or revitalized as in reality one of the major upgrades would be open air lighting, which in fact existed in the past ) because a large amount of it sits beneath the Post office, not under MSG.

    As far as a new hotel? Who gives two shits... there are new and renovated hotels all over midtown. Do the hotels across the street and on diagonals to the Garden help me or other fans in any way? The last time I stayed in a hotel in NYC was for the parade and for the All-star game both way back in 1994.

    Want to talk about an area that would help revitalize NYC more than anything else.... try talking about the former WTC and it's surrounding neighborhood. Thats where NY both the city and State need to spend the money on revitalizing in order to help the economy, the quality of life and the morale of New Yorkers.... certainly not midtown.

    But again, what are these features and efficiencies that you speak of in modern buildings? I don't happen to have a problem with the scoreboard. The only real reason these enormodomes need super scoreboards is because too many of the affordable seats are so far from the action that you can't actually watch it live effectively. Our scoreboard seems quite fine to me.

    Comparing Yankee Stadium which was literally falling apart and had chunks of structural concrete falling in recent years is different than talking about the Garden. Yankee Stadium was built in 1923 not 1968... thats a big difference when your talking about something needing to be modernized.

    Same with Boston Gardens, that was an exact copy of the third Madison Square Garden. We replaced that in 1968, to talk about how the Celtics and Bruins moved out of their place as an example that the Rangers could do the same is backwards.
    They moved out of a building that we moved out of 27 years earlier.

    Yankee Stadium in fact was built while the Rangers were still in Madison Square Garden II, we had built and played in III for 43 years before we moved on to the Garden we are in now and the Yankees have been in the same building...
    That should give you an idea of how old those places were when they left.
    So let's not use examples of truly outdated buildings as examples of the Rangers moving.

    I can tell you first hand and most Boston fans will tell you the same thing... Boston Garden was small, dirty and lacked ALL amenities... but it was 10 times better to watch a hockey game in... it had history, it had feeling, it got louder than the new building it had everything a HOCKEY fan wanted... and that goes the same for Maple Leaf Gardens, The Forum and The Joe. The only building that might be better as far as replacements is the Flyers place because the old Spectrum just sucked. It was a fishbowl and it took 10 minutes to get to the bathrooms ( not including the lines when you got there ) from the upper seats.

    Please... give me a couple of those amenities that you speak of that would somehow make the Rangers games better in a new building... it's bad enough I see empty seats now at Rangers games... increasing the capacity by 2000 may seem nice for the bottom line profit... but it certainly won't help make the building feel any more alive or vibrant.

    oh, and please explain how MSG had hurt the NYC economy, since your bringing up economics of the city I'd like to ask how (apart from not paying real estate taxes on MSG, which I'm sure will not change at any new Garden either.)"
    Last edited by RS085; November 11th, 2007 at 05:23 PM.

  10. #1855

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    More like a rant than an article. I lost interest after...
    As far as a new hotel? Who gives two shits.

  11. #1856

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    Id give one but i cant afford two.

  12. #1857

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    http://ny.metro.us/metro/local/artic...th_/10820.html

    60 seconds with …
    … Maura Moynihan, founder of Friends of Moynihan Station


    by amy zimmer / metro new york
    NOV 21, 2007

    INTERVIEW. Maura Moynihan — daughter of the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan — handed out more than 800 leaflets yesterday morning to get Penn Station commuters to support the new transit hub that will bear her father’s name. Moynihan talked to Metro about why she’ll continue leafletting until she sees the jackhammers.

    Why launch this campaign?

    We’re taking it to the people. Taking it to the streets. Otherwise it’s just sitting in board rooms behind closed doors. That’s been happening the last 20 years. It is poignant to go there and see people in the heart of “the pit” and see the anxiety on their faces as they hither and dither about. It’s a waking nightmare. When was the last time someone said to you, “Let’s meet for a drink at Penn Station?” Whereas people go to Grand Central all the time.

    Doesn’t everyone want Moynihan Station to happen?

    It’s like world peace. Everyone wants it to happen, but people don’t want to make any changes.

    Can the time line be sped up?

    It will go fast as people wake up to their self-interest. It’s a jobs project. It will create a minimum of 30,000 construction jobs. It’s a public works project and a transportation project, and it’s a green project, because it involves public transportation. I can’t wait to see the wrecking ball tear down Madison Square Garden. It’s so vile. How they tore down the original Penn Station in the first place is a travesty. We can’t have the old one back, but anything is better than the garbage we have now.

  13. #1858

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    http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wi...,3456414.story

    Plans slowly moving forward for new Penn Station in NYC

    By AMY WESTFELDT
    November 19, 2007

    NEW YORK - Picture Penn Station with a sloping, glass-paneled roof, natural sunlight pouring in and thousands of passengers passing through a huge, majestic concourse just like Grand Central Terminal.

    That was 1963, and that Penn Station is gone. The Beaux-Arts landmark was demolished and replaced by the Madison Square Garden sports arena and a dark, underground warren of passages and platforms that make up the nation's busiest train station.

    Maura Moynihan, daughter of the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, calls it "the pit."

    "It is an offense ... not just to transportation, but to good taste generally," she said.

    After more than a decade of false starts, a $14 billion plan is moving forward to rebuild the station _ which would be named after Moynihan, a longtime fundraising advocate for a new hub _ and the dingy neighborhood surrounding it.

    It hinges on Madison Square Garden agreeing to sell its arena on the spot where the original station stood, and move into an annex in a landmark post office building across the street.

    That building, the James A. Farley Post Office, would also house a grand atrium with glass ceilings for more than 550,000 passengers who pass through the station each day _ more people than use all three New York City-area airports put together. More than 5 million square feet of commercial and retail space would be built around it, in a new city business district similar to one that enlivened the area around Grand Central decades earlier.

    "That district is the poor stepcousin of Midtown," said Vishaan Chakrabarti, president of the Moynihan Station Venture, the project's developers. "It's really the last area that really hasn't been revitalized."

    The venture includes Related Cos. and Vornado Realty Trust; Vornado owns more than 6 million square feet of commercial space in the neighborhood, as well as a hotel just outside the district that is being pursued as a possible new headquarters for Merrill Lynch. Just west of the train station, billions of dollars in new development is planned along the Hudson River waterfront.

    Redeveloping the station and the area around it has been talked about for over a decade, and designs of the main concourse have been revised for the past eight years. The state Empire State Development Corp., under the administration of former Gov. George Pataki, last year failed to win approval of the three-member Public Authorities Control Board to go forward. The board said at the time that the plan needed to be bigger, addressing the needs of the entire train station _ home to Amtrak, New Jersey Transit, Long Island Rail Road trains and half a dozen subway lines.

    The agency presented a new version to the public last month, proposing rebuilding the entire station for about $2 billion, moving the Garden to the post office and creating the new business district to spur high-end commercial development.

    Negotiations for virtually every aspect of the project are still under way. The Postal Service has sold most of the building to the Empire State Development Corp., although it will still keep a historic, 24-hour lobby with Tiffany's furniture open for business. The developers and the agency are discussing funding for the station; public funding from federal, state and city sources could amount to less than $1 billion, said the agency's downstate chairman, Patrick Foye.

    It also needs approval of Amtrak, which owns the station. Spokesman Clifford Cole said Amtrak supports the project but wants assurances that a new station will make more space available for riders, such as waiting areas and better stores and restaurants.

    Mostly, it needs the Garden, whose plans have already riled preservationists worried that moving a sports arena into a landmark building would threaten a piece of history in the same way the old Penn Station was destroyed in 1963.

    "We don't want history to repeat itself here," said Peg Breen, president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy. "There is no need for the Garden to wreck Farley."

    The post office is considered a crown jewel of New York City architecture, with its imposing Corinthian columns and gigantic staircase.

    Breen and other preservationists deride reports that owners of the Garden plan to build a glass wall facing the concourse, saying it would overwhelm the train station. They worry that billboards advertising rock concerts and basketball games would be draped over the columns outside the building.

    Said Foye: "We are very focused on the preservation issues at Farley ... We have not agreed to a glass wall." He also said billboards would not obstruct the columns and facade on the building's Eighth Avenue exterior.

    Garden officials declined comment on their needs for the arena, beyond an earlier statement that they are "continuing to explore all opportunities" in the neighborhood, including moving the Garden.

    If the arena does not agree to move, it plans to renovate the existing arena, blocking redevelopment of the train station under the arena.

    "I don't want to have to be the person to have to explain to 600,000 passengers ... that they didn't get a new Penn Station because someone objected to a glass wall," said Chakrabarti.


    And Maura Moynihan, who belongs to a civic group promoting the project, said her father would approve, despite the many arguments over the design.

    "This is a chance that will never come again," she said. "We can't ask for perfection from any project at this late date. We have to move quickly."

  14. #1859
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    I don't think I'm ever going to open this thread and find good news. It gets rather tiring to hear about the old Penn Station over and over again. Clearly, it is so far in the past that references to it no longer resonate with present-day train riders.

    I also fail to understand why MSG could not be taken through emminent domain, since the privately owned arena is standing in the way of a public works project.

  15. #1860

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynRider View Post
    I also fail to understand why MSG could not be taken through emminent domain, since the privately owned arena is standing in the way of a public works project.
    Now there's an idea!

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