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Thread: New Penn Station (Moynihan Station)

  1. #2401
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    No doubt folks will be able to access the station by going up the stairs and through the post office.

    But to force folks rushing to a train to climb up all those steps just to go down again once inside doesn't make much sense (and isn't compliant with ADA regulations).

  2. #2402

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    Without a grand space, the whole thing looks dull.

    Where's the great gateway? Looks like more more Penn Station labyrinth.

    Why bother?

  3. #2403

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    This is an important functional component and an important first step, not the whole station. It is also simply an extension of the current LIRR concourse in the location. You can't tell me that doesn't make sense. It's under a sidewalk. How grand could it be?

    Anything that will help get commuters off the platforms faster is welcome in my book. It will make the experience of traveling through Penn ever so slightly less soul-crushing. The windows down to the tracks will actually help orient users.

  4. #2404

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    Egads, that entranceway is shockingly underwhelming. Is it really what the finished product's supposed to look like?

    I'm with Ablarc; if the point is to spend billions to restore the grandeur to this train station and create a proper "Gateway to New York City," you may want to be sure you're building a fitting gateway to the Gateway. This, meanwhile, looks like the doorway to a McSam Holiday Inn on 38th. Don't know if this ruins it, but it's a near deal-breaker for me.

  5. #2405

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    I'm assuming the main entrances will still be on 33rd and 31st streets, as they have been throughout all the iterations of the past decade. This concourse is for commuters.

    In case you think I'm apologist for the Farley project, let me once again voice my opposition to the Farley conversion concept.

    Let's imagine a tourist riding Amtrak in to New York City for the first time.

    Someone getting off a train goes for the first stairs or escalator they see. The way Penn is set up - and will continue to be set up because Moinihan Station does nothing at platform level-- that person may wind up in the LIRR, or NJTransit, or the shared NJTransit/Amtrak area, or at this LIRR concourse on the other side of 8th avenue. It depends on where they were sitting on the train and what track the incoming train was assigned. The Moinihan Project would just add a wrinkle to this condition. Some lucky, happy Amtrak riders may find themselves in the glorious new concourse. Or these tourists may find themselves under Madison Square Garden, in this strange, drum shaped hall. They see what look likes a main stairway flanked by escalators and intuitively follow that route. They emerge outside to find themselves in a dark, abandoned taxiway.

    Penn Station, or whatever you decide to call its successor, belongs where its guts have been for a century (happy belated birthday - September 8). We cannot atone for its vandalization by appropriating the grandeur of it its neighbor and shoehorning a train station in to it. What a feeble notion!

    (MSG really needed to move, although I have this nagging hunch that the underutilized spaces around and under the abandoned taxiway could be converted to a transit hall at least as impressive as any proposed at Farley. And more functional)

  6. #2406

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    MSG just needs to go. Perhaps in 2 or 3 decades.

    Posted this earlier.


    DBox

    Large: http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1353/...3fe021f6_b.jpg

  7. #2407

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    Not looking forward to lugging a suitcase up that stairway at Farley (new Moynihan).

  8. #2408
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Won't have to ... the entry is to be at street level, at the side of the staircase near the corner of the building.

  9. #2409
    Senior Swanky Peteynyc1's Avatar
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    Is all that blue painted plywood going up around the Northwest end of MSG for this project?

  10. #2410

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    I'd rather see MSG remain on the spot as opposed to a developer getting the rights to pack office towers and a shopping mall, along with dealing with a mess of construction for well more than a full decade. What was lost in the 60s can unfortunately never be replicated by our society, but there is definitely potential in the future for the current building to be retrofitted to reopen Penn Station to sunlight and build a grand atrium. The underpass between MSG and Two Penn Plaza is a space that could easily be used to open up Penn Station after the MSG renovation is over, as it currently has no other use and is very accessible from 31st, 33rd, and the lobby of Two Penn. The Theatre at MSG which occupies the lower 2 or 3 floors of the building adjacent to 8th avenue could also be gutted and Penn Station expanded.

  11. #2411

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    As others have aluded to, there is a general practical rule in architecture (aside from ADA and accessibility requirements).... Don't go up to go down.

    While it may be great to go up those steps, to only ultimately go down again once through the doors is not a good solution. Only make level changes when necessary. Its about efficiency of space and time.

  12. #2412
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    Unlikely, but hey you never know...the good news is that with Amtrak involved the terminus would be Penn/Moynihan station.

    NOVEMBER 8, 2010, 5:20 P.M. ET

    Amtrak, NJ Transit discussing Hudson rail tunnel

    Associated Press

    TRENTON, N.J. — Amtrak and NJ Transit have begun discussing the possibility of partnering to build a second train tunnel under the Hudson River just weeks after New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie killed just such a project.

    Officials at both agencies described the talks as merely exploratory and said they began after the governor's Oct. 27 announcement that he was canceling the tunnel project because of potential cost overruns.

    A spokesman for the Republican governor cautioned that the talks do not mean that the scrapped tunnel project is being revived.

    The tunnel project "is over," said Christie spokesman Michael Drewniak, but "fiscally viable alternatives" would be investigated.

    Amtrak spokesman Cliff Cole said that among the things being looked at is whether the work already done for the project could be salvaged for Amtrak's needs.

    "We're looking into common project opportunities with NJ Transit," Cole said. "We're not sure if there are even any opportunities that would work but we've been asked to sit down and talk with them and we've begun that process."

    Amtrak and NJ Transit currently share a century-old, two-track tunnel under the river that has been at capacity for years.

    The killed project would have added two more tracks in a new tunnel. It was expected to cost about $9 billion, with costs split by New Jersey, the federal government and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

    Work on it began last year, but Christie killed the project last month, saying the overrun costs would be too much for his state's taxpayers. At the same time, Christie mentioned the possibility of forming a partnership with Amtrak to build a new tunnel, but said no substantive discussions had taken place.

    Amtrak has said it would be interested in using the Hudson River tunnel for high-speed rail. In September, the government-owned passenger rail system unveiled its vision for a $117 billion high-speed rail line that would require building a new set of tracks along the entire Northeast Corridor, from Boston to Washington, D.C. No substantial planning has begun, nor has financing been secured.

    The planned tunnel was criticized not only for its price tag but also because only NJ Transit trains would have used it and because those trains would not have stopped at Penn Station. Instead, they would have used a new station at 34th Street under Macy's department store.

    Ross Capon, executive director of the National Association of Railroad Passengers, said it makes sense for Amtrak to try to revive the project, provided the tunnels can be made to terminate at Penn Station.

    Amtrak is not in a position to finance its high-speed rail vision and would probably seek aid from the Obama administration in either loans or grants.

    One question mark is whether Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., who is in line to become chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee in January, would support a bid by Amtrak to revive the project. Mica has been an outspoken critic of Amtrak.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/APb78a...EFTAPHeadlines

  13. #2413
    Jersey Patriot JCMAN320's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyO View Post
    Unlikely, but hey you never know...the good news is that with Amtrak involved the terminus would be Penn/Moynihan station.

    NOVEMBER 8, 2010, 5:20 P.M. ET

    Amtrak, NJ Transit discussing Hudson rail tunnel

    Associated Press

    TRENTON, N.J. — Amtrak and NJ Transit have begun discussing the possibility of partnering to build a second train tunnel under the Hudson River just weeks after New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie killed just such a project.

    Officials at both agencies described the talks as merely exploratory and said they began after the governor's Oct. 27 announcement that he was canceling the tunnel project because of potential cost overruns.

    A spokesman for the Republican governor cautioned that the talks do not mean that the scrapped tunnel project is being revived.

    The tunnel project "is over," said Christie spokesman Michael Drewniak, but "fiscally viable alternatives" would be investigated.

    Amtrak spokesman Cliff Cole said that among the things being looked at is whether the work already done for the project could be salvaged for Amtrak's needs.

    "We're looking into common project opportunities with NJ Transit," Cole said. "We're not sure if there are even any opportunities that would work but we've been asked to sit down and talk with them and we've begun that process."

    Amtrak and NJ Transit currently share a century-old, two-track tunnel under the river that has been at capacity for years.

    The killed project would have added two more tracks in a new tunnel. It was expected to cost about $9 billion, with costs split by New Jersey, the federal government and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

    Work on it began last year, but Christie killed the project last month, saying the overrun costs would be too much for his state's taxpayers. At the same time, Christie mentioned the possibility of forming a partnership with Amtrak to build a new tunnel, but said no substantive discussions had taken place.

    Amtrak has said it would be interested in using the Hudson River tunnel for high-speed rail. In September, the government-owned passenger rail system unveiled its vision for a $117 billion high-speed rail line that would require building a new set of tracks along the entire Northeast Corridor, from Boston to Washington, D.C. No substantial planning has begun, nor has financing been secured.

    The planned tunnel was criticized not only for its price tag but also because only NJ Transit trains would have used it and because those trains would not have stopped at Penn Station. Instead, they would have used a new station at 34th Street under Macy's department store.

    Ross Capon, executive director of the National Association of Railroad Passengers, said it makes sense for Amtrak to try to revive the project, provided the tunnels can be made to terminate at Penn Station.

    Amtrak is not in a position to finance its high-speed rail vision and would probably seek aid from the Obama administration in either loans or grants.

    One question mark is whether Rep. John Mica, R-Fla., who is in line to become chairman of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee in January, would support a bid by Amtrak to revive the project. Mica has been an outspoken critic of Amtrak.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/APb78a...EFTAPHeadlines
    Amtrak, NJ Transit break off talks on reviving ARC Hudson River rail tunnel

    Published: Friday, November 12, 2010, 4:00 PM Updated: Friday, November 12, 2010, 4:01 PM
    The Associated Press


    Amanda Brown/The Star-Ledger
    Commuters board an NJ Transit train at Newark Penn Station. Talks between Amtrak and NJ Transit about building a new rail tunnel under the Hudson River have ended.

    Amtrak said it is not interested in taking over the Hudson River commuter rail tunnel project that Gov. Chris Christie killed last month.

    Amtrak spokesman Cliff Cole said the national railroad's primary focus is advancing a Northeast Corridor high-speed rail service and that it had "no interest in a partnership" with NJ Transit on reviving the tunnel project.

    Earlier this week, Christie told the editorial board of The Record that Amtrak was interested in engineering work and other plans NJ Transit had completed for the scrapped Hudson River rail tunnel. The governor killed the $8.7 billion tunnel from New Jersey to Manhattan because of potential cost overruns.

    "Amtrak has already spoken to us about whether certain (aspects) of the engineering work and other (work) that was done already might be something that they could purchase from us as they begin to look to plan their tunnel for high-speed rail," Christie told the editorial board.

    On Thursday, Amtrak released a statement saying it had no plans to purchase any NJ Transit work related to the project. It did say, however, that it was open to exploring ways to expand passenger rail capacity under the Hudson, provided NJ Transit "fully fund all costs associated with creating additional commuter train capacity."

    NJ Transit has questioned whether it was obligated to pay back the entire $271 million that it had gotten from the federal government for the now-dead tunnel project. On Wednesday, Christie said lawyers were looking into it and that the state won't pay "a nickel more than we think we have to."

    On Wednesday, Christie also told The Record that his wife, a bond trader for Cantor Fitzerald, had a role in his decision to kill the project, which would have doubled the number of trains into Manhattan during peak hours.

    "The lobbying to me on this one was from my wife, who spent 18 years commuting into New York City," he said. "She's like, 'So this thing's going 10 stories under Macy's ... and then I gotta go back up and I gotta walk over to Penn Station, I get on a subway ... This is crazy. This doesn't make any sense.'"

    However, under the plan that Christie killed, Mary Pat Christie would have had access to 10 local train lines and could have caught a train from the new station to her office at 59th Street and Park Ave. or to Wall Street.

    http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...ak_off_ta.html

  14. #2414
    Senior Swanky Peteynyc1's Avatar
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    I gave up on this project about 30 pages in this thread ago!

  15. #2415

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    Greetings all,

    This is a completely Blue-Sky Idea.

    Now that we have gotten the ball rolling on Moynihan Station (Albeit slowly), we should begin thinking about the future for the existing Pennsylvania Station. If, by some miracle, we can make several arrangements for the occupants of Madison Square Garden to temporarily relocate to Barclays Center in Brooklyn and for a New Madison Square Garden to be built above the railroad tracks on 9th Avenue across from the Farley Post Office, then we can fix a great mistake and rebuild Pennsylvania Station. There is one question though. Should we build an entirely new station, like this proposal below?



    Or, should we rebuild the original 1910 McKim, Mead, & White Station on the site, to reclaim the glory of a lost building and era, like the Germans did when they reconstructed the buildings of Dresden after it was destroyed in WW2?



    Discuss!

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