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Thread: New Penn Station (Moynihan Station)

  1. #2596
    Jersey Patriot JCMAN320's Avatar
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    May 2003
    Jersey City

    Exclamation Hudson Tunnels Anchor Around Economy

    Build $16B Hudson tunnels or economy could lose $100M a day, Amtrak says

    By Larry Higgs | NJ Advance Media for
    Email the author
    on November 06, 2014 at 4:40 PM, updated November 06, 2014 at 9:17 PM

    Passengers wait on the platform as an Amtrak train pulls into the station at Newark Penn Station. ( file photo)

    Construction of new Amtrak tunnels to New York could cost an estimated $16 billion and under the most optimistic scenario could take up to a decade to build.

    "It could be done in seven years if we put some incentives on it," Amtrak president Joseph Boardman said during an interview with the Star-Ledger editorial board. "We're looking at a minimum of seven years to 11 years. That's from the time we get a go-ahead."

    Amtrak officials are in a race against time to avoid a commuting nightmare if one of the existing 100-year old tunnels has to be closed for major repairs before new tunnels are built. Train traffic would slow to a trickle, from an average of 24 to 6 trains per hour if one of the existing tunnels had to be closed.

    The regional economy could lose $100 million a day in economic activity, due to a shut down, Boardman said.

    About 400 NJ Transit commuter trains a day travel through the existing tunnels, he said.

    An estimated 50 and 80 percent of the Gateway tunnel project funding should come from the federal government, with the remainder to be divided between New Jersey, New York and Amtrak, Boardman said.

    Gov. Chris Christie cancelled the Access to the Region's Core tunnel project in October 2010 over concerns the state could get stuck with overrun costs that could have brought that project to $14 billion. He expressed support for a jointly funded tunnel to Penn Station.

    Any cost overruns for the Gateway project would be shared, Boardman said.

    Exact costs to build the tunnels, a new Portal Bridge and an annex south of New York Penn Station won't be known until after preliminary engineering is done. The next step is for Amtrak to take proposals from companies to conduct an environmental review in the spring, Boardman said.

    Building new tunnels took on added importance when Amtrak officials announced last month that the existing tunnels were damaged by flood waters driven by Hurricane Sandy. Building new tunnels would allow one of the old tunnels to be taken out of service for one year for major repairs without affecting rail service.

    Larry Higgs may be reached at Follow him on Twitter @commutinglarry. Find on Facebook.

  2. #2597
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    Feb 2008
    New York City


    Gotta love these bullshit numbers these people throw around. 100 Million dollars per day, yeah ok buddy maybe you should stop smoking the funny stuff.

    The market always adapts, if there's not enough rush hour capacity commuters will shift hours or simply relocate to New York State. There are also ways to work around the rush to avoid peak shutdowns where possible. It's just that it's not "easy" or "simple" for the construction planners who prefer to be lazy

    If you're going to build a new tunnel, the priority has to be extending the 7 train to New Jersey
    Last edited by GordonGecko; November 7th, 2014 at 09:54 AM.

  3. #2598


    They could say they'll lose 1 million a day, but that doesn't usually spur the knee-jerk reaction they need to jump start development.

    When people get used to a norm, i.e. the 24-trains-per-hour plan they have going on right now, and then have that reduced to 6 by tunnel repairs, they generally complain. Add that to inadequate infrastructure, and yes, people will find alternative ways of travelling across the river. However, that means more cars on the road, and more traffic at the toll booths that we could do without.

    It's great for the Port Authority. They'll probably invoke toll hikes just to cash in, but I'd prefer to take a train.

  4. #2599


    If anyone still cares, it looks like they're going to be starting over from scratch, booting the existing developers. Years ago in this same thread, I said this was starting to look like a boondoggle. Now I'm officially declaring it as such:

    Cuomo Considers Reset for Long-Delayed Penn Station Expansion


    DEC. 14, 2015

    Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo is considering a bold move to restart the long-stalled plan to transform Midtown Manhattan’s blocklong general post office into a $900 million transit and commercial hub for Pennsylvania Station: jettisoning the developers, Related Companies and Vornado Realty.
    The developers, selected for the project known as Moynihan Station in 2005, tried twice to move Madison Square Garden into the James A. Farley Post Office. They also failed in attempts to lure a community college and CBS to the post office, which is across Eighth Avenue from the Garden and Penn Station.
    This year, the developers promised state officials impatient with the lack of progress that they would finally close on the deal without a tenant.

    Despite what both sides say was progress on the price, totaling hundreds of millions of dollars, state officials told the developers at a meeting on Thursday that the state was tired of waiting and was considering replacing Related and Vornado.

    The shocked developers were loath to talk about it, for fear of antagonizing the governor and jeopardizing a project they still hope to salvage. State officials have also been tight-lipped. But word of the state’s action has circulated among real estate executives and elected officials, including the project’s most consistent proponent, Senator Chuck Schumer.
    Many wondered whether the governor had adopted a tough stance to spur the developers into action on the project.
    Kay Sarlin Wright, a spokeswoman for the state’s economic development agency, was terse and stopped well short of expressing support for the developers. “The state is considering a number of different development scenarios, and no decisions have been made,” she said.
    The Cuomo administration is eager to fix Penn Station, the busiest station in North America, expand the terminal’s capacity and build a new rail tunnel underneath the Hudson River.
    Although the deal with the developers has not closed in 10 years, any action to remove the developers would come with consequences. Under the terms of their agreement, the state would be required to reimburse the developers for $30 million in expenses. The state would also be barred from soliciting new developers for a year, unless Related and Vornado agree.
    But state officials insist there would be no delays if Related and Vornado were eventually ousted. “There will be no delay of a year,” said John P. L. Kelly, a spokesman for Mr. Cuomo. “This governor is about advancing stalled projects, not continuing the status quo.”
    Perhaps with an eye toward an announcement at the governor’s State of the State speech in January, state officials are considering a Plan B, including reviving the idea of moving the 5,600-seat theater beneath Madison Square Garden across Eighth Avenue to the post office, according to two executives who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they did not want to become embroiled in the dispute. That would allow for an expansion of Penn Station and new entrances on Eighth Avenue.
    A spokesman for Madison Square Garden referred questions to the governor’s office.
    The state has been overseeing about $300 million worth of work below the post office and is currently rounding up an estimated $700 million for the second phase, building a train hall.
    As part of the initial deal, Related and Vornado were to pay the state over $200 million for the building and $110 million — or $100 a square foot — for development rights that they could transfer to other sites. This year, the state commissioned an appraisal that put the value of the air rights at an undisclosed but far higher number.
    Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who died in 2003, first conceived of turning the general post office, with its grand staircase and columns, into an adjunct rail station to relieve the congestion at Penn Station and as an act of redemption for the demolition of the original Beaux-Arts station in 1963.
    In June 2005, Gov. George E. Pataki selected Related and Vornado from among a competing group of developers to do the work. State and federal dollars would be used to turn the railroad tracks underneath the post office and the lower levels into a train station, while the developers would renovate and fill the building with commercial and retail tenants.
    The developers spent years on plans to replace Madison Square Garden with glass entryways to the station and a set of skyscrapers or a glass mall. But the plans collapsed during the recession in 2008. Three years later, Related and Vornado tried to resurrect the project and install the Borough of Manhattan Community College inside the post office.
    The once sleepy area west of Penn Station is now alive with billions of dollars in commercial and residential projects. Local developers fear that the largely vacant post office will be a drag on progress in the area.
    At least two companies, Brookfield Properties and Extell Development, have suggested that they would be interested in taking on the project if the current deal fell through.

  5. #2600


    I guess no on cares.

  6. #2601

  7. #2602


    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
    I guess no on cares.
    What are the chances of razing the Garden?

  8. #2603
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    Feb 2008
    New York City


    They may not even finish East Side Access, let alone embark on a 20 billion tunnel to Macy's and 40 billion new Penn Station

  9. #2604


    I think pretty low. The ownership of the garden will fight tooth and nail, and point out, rightly, that no one is going to come up with the money to build a new, palatial Penn Station. If they're forced to close MSG at it's current location, it will be replaced by something like office buildings, hotels, maybe condos etc. Essentially, it will become Hudson Yards East.

    Personally, I think the current location of MSG is fine. The concept of having a major arena/event facility sitting on top of a major transportation hub is really good. I think the current incarnation of MSG is crap. I'd like to see it replaced by a first class arena and other facilities that make better use of the space and location. However, I don't see this happening either. It would likely not make the ownership enough more money to justify the investment.

    Quote Originally Posted by londonlawyer View Post
    What are the chances of razing the Garden?
    Last edited by BBMW; December 30th, 2015 at 03:11 PM.

  10. #2605


    January 6, 2016

    Penn Station, the Worst Public Transit Experience in the US, Will Be Reborn—Amen!

    By Alissa Walker

    Finally, some good news for the 650,000 commuters forced to slither through the catacomb-like warrens of one of the worst train stations on the planet every single day. New York City’s Penn Station is getting a much-needed $3 billion makeover.

    As part of a comprehensive regional transportation plan that includes a new airport at LaGuardia (with a train!), New York Governor Andrew Cuomo announced a big plan to reimagine one of the country’s busiest transit hubs as part of a bigger development called the Empire Station Complex.

    The development will transform a large post office next door into a ticket hall and concourse which will bring much-needed light, space, and additional services to the travel experience. Although there have been plenty of proposals for revamping the station over the years, the biggest problem is that the event arena Madison Square Garden sits on top of it. Using the Farley Post Office next door (an older idea, actually, that Cuomo’s revived) opens up so many more possibilities.

    Don’t worry, though, Penn Station will also get a facelift.

    From the governor’s renderings it looks like the goal is to restore at least some of the glorious architecture vibes from the original Penn Station, which was demolished in 1963. The dazzling arching skylights evoke the grand station in all the right ways, without feeling too throwback.

    There’s still a ways to go before we know exactly what to expect. As part of a public-private partnership, developers will have to bid on how they envision transforming the stinky low-slung tunnels into places more suited for LIRR riders than Pizza Rat. But as part of the surprisingly accelerated schedule, groundbreaking for the new station will supposedly happen this year.

    Check out the whole plan for Penn Station here.

  11. #2606


    Penn Station will never be fixed until that dump known as MSG is completely removed. Not just the theater, but the arena too. We can't wait until their lease ends in 7 years or whenever.

    Until that cancer is gone, it's a band-aid solution. We can't wait for a Phase 2, removing the Garden. Do it first.

  12. #2607


    Just think how much money could be saved by getting rid of it now, rather than the inevitable later.

  13. #2608


    Quote Originally Posted by ASchwarz View Post
    Penn Station will never be fixed until that dump known as MSG is completely removed. Not just the theater, but the arena too. We can't wait until their lease ends in 7 years or whenever.

    Until that cancer is gone, it's a band-aid solution. We can't wait for a Phase 2, removing the Garden. Do it first.
    I thought the same thing. It would be a shame if a half-assed "fix" is enacted in which msg is not razed.

  14. #2609
    I admit I have a problem
    Join Date
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    North Koreatown


    I don't mind the incremental approach. But it's so crucial that the increments not be VE'd to death. For example, with the closure of 33rd Street, the entire LIRR concourse should be built up and out as a magnificent block-long skylit atrium, tall and wide as possible per fire codes, to showcase the glorious city views. It could be quite an iconic space, if done right.

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    Last edited by 212; January 7th, 2016 at 03:02 AM.

  15. #2610
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    Quote Originally Posted by londonlawyer View Post
    I thought the same thing. It would be a shame if a half-assed "fix" is enacted in which msg is not razed.
    Dolan is strategizing to make sure that doesn't happen. He personally hosted Governor Cuomo's press conference at Madison Square Garden and has agreed to give up the Madison Square Garden Paramount Theater to be demolished for the new Penn Station plan. He's clearly giving something to prevent something bigger from being taken away and now he's in the fold of the project. Although, if the theater were doing well I doubt he would have offered it. The seating configuration sucks and I bet it's losing money

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