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Thread: New Penn Station (Moynihan Station)

  1. #691
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyO
    Where did you read that? First I've heard of it.

    Are you serious?

  2. #692
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    ^ Ok, you are talking about the hudson yards. But they never intended to re-build MSG there.

    I am talking about the smaller, uncovered site covering just west of the Farley building (that has been suggested for rebuilding the arena and they rebuffed).

  3. #693
    Forum Veteran krulltime's Avatar
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    ^ I think brookfieldproperties plans to built some tower there. Maybe the land is not for sale. They might be looking for a tenant.


    401 West 31 Street
    New York, New York
    United States
    Square Footage: 2,500,000

    Located directly across from the Farley Post Office on Ninth Avenue, which is currently being redeveloped as the Moynihan Train Station, New York's most highly-trafficked commuter rail hub. Significant redevelopment is taking place in this neighborhood, including the expansion of the Jacob Javits Convention Center.
    http://www.brookfieldproperties.com/development.htm

    I rather see a new tower than some arena on this parcel and see the Garden redeveloped on their tax-free land with a new arena and new towers. It can happen.

  4. #694
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    theve had that on there site for 5 plus years, that site as well as the one next to it owned by Schulweiss would be great "gateways" into Hudson yards

  5. #695

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    Why does it matter if MSG has its tax breaks on its current site or in the Farley annex? What's the difference? Either way they get the tax breaks. They won't move without them.

    Sounds like people are still bitter about the JETS stadium cancellation and letting it fog their judgement.

    The Dolans don't even want to move MSG. It's Related/Vornado who want to move MSG. Opposing transfer of the MSG tax breaks isn't going to hurt the Dolans, so why do people see this as an opportunity to get revenge on them?

  6. #696

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    from gothamist.com





    June 07, 2006

    Poor Moynihan Station is Stuck in Development Hell


    There's a really good article in the Observer about how the Moynihan Station may now be a new fight between the city, state, and some important real estate bigwigs. The developers in charge of the project want to move Madision Square Garden to the Ninth Avenue part of the Farley Post Office lot (Moynihan Station will take the Eighth Avenue side); the Dolans who own MSG will only move if they get tax breaks and if MSG can use the Eighth Avenue entrance; and Pataki's people just want the Moynihan project to start this year...but the city wants to wait and see what happens with moving MSG to the site. Two weeks ago, developers Related and Vornado "took some plastic and wooden models of the Penn Station area to show off in a series of meetings with City Hall, important business associations and the New York Times editorial board," in order to gain support for a combined project. But, for all the business leader support it does have (though there needs to be an extra $1 billion from God knows where to build it), it's questionable how quickly the project can get off the ground. The article closes with this:
    “There is a reality that if you go this route, you would not go as quickly,” said Richard Anderson, the president of the New York Building Congress, which gave measured support for the arena swap at the public hearing. “It will certainly take longer to do. On the other hand, the straightforward Moynihan Station plan has not gotten off the ground.

    “If you have the right project,” he said, “sometimes it will take less time than the wrong project, especially if there are powerful economic incentives on all sides. If this is the right project, everyone will rally behind it.”
    That's so true - we've been wondering if the Moynihan Station plans are just a mirage. For once, we agree with NY State development people and hope the project gets started. A 2005 rendering of the Moynihan Station, which means it's probably past its due date

  7. #697

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    New York Sun
    June 8, 2006

    'Grand' Profits in Garden Deal Is Vornado's Boast to Investors

    By DAVID LOMBINO - Staff Reporter of the Sun

    The proposal to move Madison Square Garden and remake Penn Station would create a billion dollar profit for Vornado Realty Trust, which has bought up much of the real estate around the Garden over the past 10 years.

    The chairman of Vornado, Steven Roth, told investors yesterday that the plan would generate "$1.2 billion in value creation," from the higher rents Vornado would command on nearly 7 million square feet of property in the near vicinity.

    "We are about making money here on a grand scale," Mr. Roth said at the REITWeek conference at the Waldorf-Astoria.

    For those big shareholder gains to be realized, though, Mr. Roth will have to sell his grand plan to refashion the neighborhood and build new towers on the existing Garden site to a different audience less enthralled by developer profits - the city,state,and federal governments. The state's top development official, Charles Gargano, recently criticized another developer, Larry Silverstein, as "greedy" amid negotiations aimed at getting a better deal for the state at ground zero. Mr. Roth's comments yesterday could hurt his negotiating position with the governments.

    Currently, Vornado and another big developer, the Related Companies, are working with the state to remake the landmarked Farley Post Office into Moynihan Station, a $900 million new train station to welcome commuters to Manhattan in style less dingy than today's Penn Station.

    Recently, the developers met with city officials and civic groups about increasing the scale of the changes: In addition to creating Moynihan Station, they would rebuild Madison Square Garden at the west side of the Farley building, open up the old Penn Station to daylight with vaulted glass ceilings and expand its capacity, and develop two or three towers on today's Garden site, between Eighth and Ninth Avenues and 31st and 33rd streets. Mr. Roth said the plan would take more than seven years to complete.

    "Our objective has nothing to do with Madison Square Garden. As an unintended consequence the city will benefit enormously from a new worldclass arena and facility," Mr. Roth said.

    "Our objective as developers," he continued, "is to get our hands on the 5.5 million square feet of development rights that goes with the Madison Square Garden site."

    Currently, Vornado has a stake in at least eight properties on the blocks surrounding the Garden. As part of the Moynihan Station deal, the company is entitled to develop with Related two more towers, one residential and one commercial or hotel tower, on sites nearby, including one that is now a public plaza. A source familiar with the deal said building those towers could also involve condemnation of some properties nearby through the use of eminent domain. Vornado also owns the Hotel Pennsylvania, across the street from the Garden, which will likely be either razed and rebuilt as a larger residential tower or renovated, according to real estate experts.

    As Mr. Roth said yesterday, his Midtown south plan depends on "an awful lot of heavy lifting among multiple governments" to gain the necessary approvals.

    That could include zoning, environmental, and landmark approvals from the city, which must also decide how to deal with a property tax exemption that Madison Square Garden enjoys in its existing site, and wants to keep.

    Success would also involve an agreement with the state to use the back of the Farley Post Office to rebuild the Garden. So far, state officials have said they agree Penn Station needs fixing, but they do not want the project to interfere with Moynihan Station, which was scheduled to seek final approval this summer, but could be delayed.

    The developers will probably need to negotiate with the federal government. According to the city's department of finance, Amtrak National Railroad Passenger Corporation owns the land and subterranean rights underneath the Garden. Amtrak now leases track and platform space to both the Long Island Railroad and New Jersey Transit. A spokesman for Amtrak, Cliff Black, said the railroad is interested in looking at any proposals that would improve the busiest station in the nationwide system.

    Lastly, there is the owner of the Garden, Cablevision, which owns the much-desired air rights. The terms of the agreement between Cablevision, Vornado, and Related is not public, and may never be. Sources familiar with the deal said it is assumed that in exchange for the Garden air rights, the developers would build a new arena for free, and perhaps pay other compensation on top of that.

    For Mr. Roth, a billionaire according to Forbes, the Penn Plaza development would be an opportunity to leave a mark on Midtown South in much the same way that Mr. Silverstein will remake Lower Manhattan.In 2001,before the twin towers were destroyed, Mr. Roth made the highest bid for a longterm lease on the World Trade Center, but the deal never closed and the lease went to Mr. Silverstein instead.

    Yesterday, Mr. Roth said that when the project is completed, Vornado would control more space on the Penn Station super-block - more than 7 million square feet - than exists at Rockefeller Center. In the surrounding area, including the new towers connected to the Moynihan deal,Vornado could control more than 14 million square feet.

    Much of Vornado's Midtown South holdings were acquired when it bought the real estate portfolio of developer Bernard Mendik in 1997 for $656 million. Mendik died in 2001, and his right-hand man, David Greenbaum, now heads Vornado's Manhattan office portfolio and is leading the MSG plan along with Mr. Roth.

    The founder of the 34th Street Partnership, Daniel Biederman, who has seen the developers' plans, said that it would require complex engineering and expensive designs by world-class architects. He said the developers would need to get commercial rents as high as $70 to $80 a foot to make the deal feasible. Currently, the highest rents in the area are believed to about $55 a square foot in One Penn Plaza, owned by Vornado.

    "That's a big leap," Mr. Biederman said.

    Still, he said the transportation makes the Garden site unique. Penn Station already is the busiest transit hub in the country, and capacity could be increased with several planned infrastructure projects, including a connector to Grand Central and an extra tunnel to New Jersey.

    © 2006 The New York Sun, One SL, LLC.

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    Still, he said the transportation makes the Garden site unique. Penn Station already is the busiest transit hub in the country, and capacity could be increased with several planned infrastructure projects, including a connector to Grand Central and an extra tunnel to New Jersey.
    This alludes to connecting the new trans-Hudson tunnel to Penn Station instead of a new terminal.

    Aside from that, Amtrak chose wisely to stay put. Now they could get a completely renovated station from Vornado.

  9. #699
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    Sloppy / inocorrect reporting like this makes me crazy -- and also causes one to question other information in the article ...

    Quote Originally Posted by BigMac / NY Sun

    'Grand' Profits in Garden Deal Is Vornado's Boast to Investors

    By DAVID LOMBINO - Staff Reporter of the Sun

    The proposal to move Madison Square Garden and remake Penn Station would create a billion dollar profit for Vornado Realty Trust ...

    ... rebuild Madison Square Garden ... develop two or three towers on today's Garden site, between Eighth and Ninth Avenues and 31st and 33rd streets.
    However the following does seem answer some questions about the intricacies of the site that have been raised previously:

    Quote Originally Posted by BigMac / NY Sun

    According to the city's department of finance, Amtrak National Railroad Passenger Corporation owns the land and subterranean rights underneath the Garden. Amtrak now leases track and platform space to both the Long Island Railroad and New Jersey Transit.

  10. #700

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyO
    This alludes to connecting the new trans-Hudson tunnel to Penn Station instead of a new terminal.

    Aside from that, Amtrak chose wisely to stay put. Now they could get a completely renovated station from Vornado.
    The new tunnel has always been intended to connect to both Penn and the new 34th Street station. This obviously allows for greater flexibility and redundancy.

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    [QUOTE=Eugenious]from gothamist.com



    So, that's a new Penn Station on the east side of Eighth with towers above - not the old Farley Post Office. I think it looks better than what we have now with MSG.

  12. #702
    Senior Member Dynamicdezzy's Avatar
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    i believe that was a proposal for tower above moynihan. You can still see the "Chip" in that rendering. (correct me if i'm wrong)

  13. #703
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    No, I think you're right. The distance to One Penn Plaza seems too great. This must be the Ninth Ave side.

  14. #704
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    That's an old proposal from when they were entertaining bids ...

  15. #705
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    AM NY

    Preservationists alarmed at possible MSG move

    By Chuck Bennett
    amNewYork Staff Writer

    June 12, 2006
    The city's preservation movement was sparked by the razing of the original Penn Station in 1963 to make way for Madison Square Garden.

    Now, more than four decades later, preservationist groups warn that the Garden is at the center of another potential development blunder.

    Real estate powerhouses Vornado Realty Trust and The Related Companies are quietly pitching an idea to build a new Madison Square Garden behind the landmark James Farley Post Office, just across Eighth Avenue from Penn Station and the arena.

    The new arena would share space with Moynihan Station, a transit hub slated to built in the Farley building.

    Few details about a new Madison Square Garden have been released, but preservationists are aghast at the idea of putting an arena adjacent to the historic post office.

    "Only in New York do you want to do this again," says Peg Breen, president of the New York Landmarks Conservancy. "If moving the Garden is of value, why aren't they exploring the other side of Ninth Avenue where they don't have to damage a landmark building."

    Under the proposal, the current Garden -- between Seventh and Eighth avenues -- would be demolished to make way for a $6 billion mega-block of three or four skyscraper and a new Penn Station -- complete with vaulted windowed ceilings to bring natural light down to the tracks.

    Vishaan Chakrabarti, a senior vice president with The Related Companies, called it "a once in a lifetime opportunity to lift the Garden from the site and create two great head houses for Penn Station, Moynihan East and Moynihan West."

    'Moynihan East' would be the new Penn Station east of Eighth Avenue. 'Moynihan West' would be the transit hub in the Farley building, a $920 million station for the Long Island Rail Road and N.J. Transit, named after the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a booster of the project.

    Construction on the Farley building station could begin as early as September and it could eventually take 30% of Penn Station's 550,000 daily passengers.

    But Breen, along with the Municipal Arts Society and other preservationists, worry that the Farley building -- designed in 1912 by McKim, Mead and White, the same firm that created the original Penn station -- would be forever marred by an arena that would likely stand 50 feet above the current facade.

    "You want to show me a tasteful arena?" she asked.

    Further, Moynihan Station, a project they support, would be swallowed by the arena.

    "It is like Cinderella's stepsister trying to fit into the glass slippers," she said. The arena would take up at least 60% of the entire Farley complex by the developers' estimates.

    And it's not just preservationists concerned about the Garden’s move.

    "There are elements of incompatibility between the two" projects, said Deputy Mayor Dan Doctoroff, the mayor's economic czar. "Regardless, it is incumbent on us to try and figure out whether this works quickly. Our view, as the City of New York, to finally deal with the tragedy of the demise of the old Penn Station, in a grand way, is an opportunity well worth a very close examination." The city already committed $154 million for Moynihan Station.

    Chakrabarti declined to discuss the concerns of the preservationists. A public review process for the Garden proposal could begin as early as this summer.

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