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Thread: New Penn Station (Moynihan Station)

  1. #901

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    Quote Originally Posted by ablarc View Post
    What was that all about anyway? Is that really an essential part of the scheme? Why not just think of it as a land bank until something comes along and says, "I want to be in this space"?
    Whether or not it is essential is another subject. The plan that is in place now calls for building the intermodal hall. Unless someone (ie. Vornado-Related) steps forward with an amendment to the plan and reason for amendment, going ahead with the smaller plan we have now means building this questionable part of the station. Shouldn't the question be answered before we begin? Or should approval be given despite the potential waste of public money?

  2. #902

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citytect View Post
    Or should approval be given despite the potential waste of public money?
    If you don't build something, where's the waste of money?

  3. #903

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman11686 View Post
    Here's a thought: does Plan A specify that the annex will be worked on at the exact same time as the Post Office? I don't think so. Start work on the station, and hold off on the annex. If MSG ends up moving there, it'll be its own project. If not, then...well, Plan A.
    Here's a scenario that is very possible.

    The annex development is is an integral component of Plan A. It allows development of the complex to extend out to 9th Ave. Related has no intention of completing that part of Plan A, or there will be no place for MSG to go, and Related will not get access to 5 million sq ft of development space.

    If, for some reason, Cablevision pulls out of Plan B, it would be in the best interest of Related for them to stall going forward with the annex development, knowing that once it is begun, there is no chance of developing those air-rights. It could sit in limbo for years.

    Which brings me back to the point I keep making, and you seem to be missing. You are talking about the nuts and bolts of building the arena; I am talking about the money.

  4. #904

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    You are talking about the nuts and bolts of building the arena; I am talking about the money.
    Money's not my forte. Let folks think about that whose forte it is: Ross, Roth, Dolan (and maybe Zippy, eh? ).

    But when folks use nuts and bolts for smoke and mirrors, it's good for someone to blow the whistle (on at least that aspect of it).

  5. #905
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    Deadline set on Moynihan Station railroad project


    Published on September 25, 2006

    Advocates of the Moynihan Station railroad project say the state must close on the purchase of the James A. Farley Post Office building by Dec. 31 or risk losing the site. The U.S. Postal Service has given officials four extensions on the deadline and is impatient to rid itself of the expense of the underused facility. Last week, top state Democrats blocked a vote to move forward with the project.


    2006 Crain Communications Inc.

  6. #906

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    Quote Originally Posted by ablarc View Post
    If you don't build something, where's the waste of money?
    Is that suppose to be an answer to the question you quoted?

    Your question is too vague to answer. What is "something"? And what money are you referring to? Are you talking about any or all parts of the plan(s) or specific ones? Or are you talking about the potential that the whole project will be shelved, or the price of postponing construction?

    Clarification?

  7. #907

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citytect View Post
    Clarification?
    If you don't build something, you've spent no money. If you've spent no money you've wasted no money.

    If you haven't built the intermodal you can't have wasted money on it.

  8. #908
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Here's a scenario that is very possible.

    The annex development is is an integral component of Plan A. It allows development of the complex to extend out to 9th Ave. Related has no intention of completing that part of Plan A, or there will be no place for MSG to go, and Related will not get access to 5 million sq ft of development space.

    If, for some reason, Cablevision pulls out of Plan B, it would be in the best interest of Related for them to stall going forward with the annex development, knowing that once it is begun, there is no chance of developing those air-rights. It could sit in limbo for years.

    Which brings me back to the point I keep making, and you seem to be missing. You are talking about the nuts and bolts of building the arena; I am talking about the money.
    Clearly, we're not seeing eye to eye on this, but I don't think it has anything to do with anyone "missing the point." Your view is that financing has to be put in place, for everything, right now. My view is that the reasons you (and others) put out (the fate of the annex, Cablevision's involvement, ticket booths, etc.) are insufficient to delay this further, for the purpose of hammering out a comprehensive financial agreement.

    Now, it's very likely that your view is more educated, and more likely to be correct. But it doesn't change the fact that we are basically talking about the same thing, with one big exception: you treat financing and construction as two separate birds, whereas I think they go hand in hand. In other words, you can't start any kind of construction on, for example, just the Moynihan Station, without having secured the funds to pay for it.

    My point is: scrap Plan A entirely, and proceed with a Plan B that gets the ball rolling on Moynihan right away. Then, no one is obligated to take action on the annex until that part is fully agreed upon. It doesn't mean (unless I'm horribly mistaken) that arranging a financial plan to build the station is impossible. It further assumes that even if Plan B isn't realized, we still get the new Moynihan, which is what we've wanted from the very beginning.

  9. #909

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    Quote Originally Posted by ablarc View Post
    If you don't build something, you've spent no money. If you've spent no money you've wasted no money.

    If you haven't built the intermodal you can't have wasted money on it.
    Right. But you seemed to have missed the point of my previous post. The current plan is to build the intermodal hall and the rest of the station inside the Farley PO. If they approve the current plan, work begins toward building these parts of the project. If we go along with this and approval is given to the smaller version of the project now without considering the likelihood that the Vornado-Related-Dolans will want to take the intermodal hall in the future to make room for MSG, we could be wasting a lot of money.

    At any rate, the project has issues that need to be resolved before approval can be given for any version of the project. If a plan were drawn up to scrap the intermodal hall and just build the portion of Moynihan Station within the Farley PO, I'd agree with you on the point that that can start work on the station now without regard to the bigger plan being hatched by the development team. But that's not the plan they're trying to get started.

  10. #910

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    Just leave out the intermodal hall. Make the small project even smaller. But build something, for gosh' sake.

  11. #911

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    Quote Originally Posted by pianoman11686 View Post
    My point is: scrap Plan A entirely, and proceed with a Plan B that gets the ball rolling on Moynihan right away.
    That's exactly right, but there is no Plan B until Cablevision agrees to it.

    Don't assume this is a no-brainer done deal. MSG sits on an attractive spot right now. It may look like crap, but it is very successful, in spite of two woeful teams. The site on 9th Ave is less ideal, and Cablevision will pay significantly higher taxes. I can't find it, but there was a WSJ or Crains article months ago that stated the entire plan could collapse because of financing.

    It further assumes that even if Plan B isn't realized, we still get the new Moynihan, which is what we've wanted from the very beginning.
    It looked good in a vacuum, but a lot of the appeal is driven by a sentimental wish to correct the error of Penn Station. In reality, Amtrak is not there, and it will only handle 20% of the volume. 8 out of 10 people will still use the dump.

  12. #912
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    It looked good in a vacuum, but a lot of the appeal is driven by a sentimental wish to correct the error of Penn Station. In reality, Amtrak is not there, and it will only handle 20% of the volume. 8 out of 10 people will still use the dump.
    I've read conflicting stories on this. The opposing one was that NJ Transit has ridership in the hundreds-of-thousands per day where Amtrak has 30-50K. I don't think LIRR traffic was mentioned (and no estimate was made about LIRR ridership post-east-side access).

  13. #913

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    Of those hundreds of thousands of passengers, under 70,000 travel to Penn Station.

    LIRR is the busiest RR in the US, over 280,000 passengers. The majority travel to Penn Station.

    Penn Station is Amtrak's busiest nationwide.

  14. #914

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    That's exactly right, but there is no Plan B until Cablevision agrees to it.

    I can't find it, but there was a WSJ or Crains article months ago that stated the entire plan could collapse because of financing.
    You hit the nail on the head, by shooting down the Moynihan plan Silver & Hevesi has played right into Cablevisions hands, who now hold all the cards. Since the public wont accept giving the Dolans a huge tax break again or financing the project using billions of public money, this project maybe as good as dead...or atleast delayed indefinitely.

  15. #915

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    Quote Originally Posted by ablarc View Post
    That's certainly plausible, but it's not exactly right.

    I agree the revised plan should be released, and I'm as anxious as anyone to see it.

    But I don't think it's a reason to delay forging forward with Moynihan as presently designed --though "professional" wisdom doubtless insists that it is. You're listening to the tut-tuts of constrained minds.
    The problem is, we're talking about building a completely new building in and on top of the Farley building. You're saying it should get approval without even seeing what even a prelimary design would look like. Not to mention the huge complex accross the street. But the details for that side of 7th Ave can wait. The developers are asking for $1 Billion dollars. Sure the Farley project can proceed now, but why rush into something that the developers have no intention of building?

    Again, release Plan B already! It doesn't matter if Cablevision has agreed to it or not, at this point it's just a proposal. It won't hurt to see it. Or at least get the specifics of the plan. I expect Pataki will lean on the developers, as his time is running out.

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