Fulton Street Transit Center

[ZippyTheChimp]

^
Pretty much.

It's a warren of infrastructure down there. And I'm not sure that any revenue realized would not be eaten up by the significant increase in construction time if a skyscraper foundation had to be shoehorned in, all the while keeping the subway lines running.

I was there two days ago. They have removed the sidewalk on broadway and have excavated about 20 feet. Already, the logistics of dealing with vehicle, pedestrian and subway reaffic seem complicated.

[lofter1]

but ablarc said they could just "plop" a tower down on top ...

[Alonzo-ny]

You can check many other threads in this forum on a variety of projects. They always include discussions of their street presence. In fact, that aspect usually produces the most lively debates.

i felt you were discussing a broader cityscape issue than the actual streetscape around the transit centre

[Fahzee]

but ablarc said they could just "plop" a tower down on top ...

I wonder if they'd be allowed to build a giant revenue generating structure (as opposed to a station that has a few mom & pop spaces in it) - seeing as how most of the property was taken through emminent domain.

[lofter1]

I think Zip is right -- too complicated to sink the necessay structural supports down through the existing subways, etc. to make such a tower work here.

[antinimby]

Besides the engineering constraints, there is also public opinion to consider.

It's one thing to take properties by eminent domain for public use and quite another to do a real estate transaction for profit.

[stache]

Á la Bridgeport.

[antinimby]

I really dont know what you're getting at at? sounds like a half assed response to me. Are you saying a great train station shouldnt be built because a duane reade is outside? i can see it now, a new zoning law, "no good architecture within a 100m radius of a duane reade". are you saying grand central is boring because it has a duane reade in and around it? Perhaps the penn station area is so crap because there is nothing like the old penn station to keep the area of a higher standard? Get back to me with an intelligent response.

It's only "half-assed" to you because it went over your head.

You said because this project is on "just fulton street," and somehow because of that, there's no need for anything grand.

Well, using your own argument, I made an analogy with Penn Station, whose entrance is 8th and 33rd, which isn't any more or less a greater thoroughfare than Fulton St.

[Alonzo-ny]

It's only "half-assed" to you because it went over your head.

You said because this project is on "just fulton street," and somehow because of that, there's no need for anything grand.

Well, using your own argument, I made an analogy with Penn Station, whose entrance is 8th and 33rd, which isn't any more or less a greater thoroughfare than Fulton St.

i was refering to 'just fulton street' which isnt anymore than a large subway interchange station whereas penn station is the entrance to new york from the rest of the country, how can you say this is not of greater importance .i have read architectural books on the importance of the entrance to a city. Obviously subway stations are important too but must less so than the gateway to the city.

[antinimby]

We all agree that Penn Station needs to be spectacular. The point is that the argument need not be because which street it's on.

Now that we are beyond that point of contention, if you don't want a nice glass dome, what do you think should be done for this site instead?

You don't want opulent, you don't want anything costly, what would you like to see?

Another dingy, non-descript brick box? Is that better for the city?

[ZippyTheChimp]

It may be called Fulton St, but it's really Broadway. Neighbors are 195 and St Paul's.

Not exactly a city backwater.

[Alonzo-ny]

my arguement was nothing to do with the street but what's UNDER the street i was never contending that fulton isnt a major road which it is but its situation as a transit 'hub' the same as times square station is and how it doesnt require a grand entrance/station just a functional one. I wont speculate on what should be built there just that it wouldnt be an entrance to the subway.

[OperatingEngineer]

I wade in here carefully:

If you really wanted to, you could build a new tower on the site. The costs for the subgrade work would be right in line with building over active subway lines anywhere else in the city.

If the project were built as designed, it will be cheaper than building the beancounter version. It seems counter-intuitive, but when you make a change to save money, you start a new set of charges for white hats and engineers that in the end cost more than original design. Then there are the change orders.

In the end this project will be built and torn down three times before it is in its final configuration. Keeping the city moving is where the bulk of the costs come from (and that is a good thing for the commuters in the city, bad for taxpayers and construction schedulers)

Personally as a resident of the area, I'm all for the as designed version. I'd like a grand entryway for two reasons: 1, I like the idea of people freely flowing in and out of the subway efficiently rather than a rehash of Shinjuku Station at 7:30am. 2, Perhaps something nice could be built by a public agency for a change rather than the camels they have been building as of late.

By the time we take all the energy and spirit out of the public buildings and spaces we construct, what does say about us as a society? We spend vast sums of money and have bland boxes to show for it. We want design, but not if someone hates it. My personal belief is if you look at the building and want to vomit, at least the design caused a gut emotional reaction. At least someone took a chance and had something emotional to show for it.

I now head back to the shore....

[JMGarcia]

I wade in here carefully:

..... 2, Perhaps something nice could be built by a public agency for a change rather than the camels they have been building as of late.....

I couldn't agree more. IMO, too many NYers are willing to accept really sub-par efforts from public agencies and most especailly the MTA.

[Derek2k3]

I hope all those wasted air rights get transferred elsewhere. Proposals for the site included the 1.3 msf 1 NYP along with an office tower proposed pre-9/11.

The SOM Box.


The starry-eyed 1 NYP



Something of this magnitude needs to be built to justify an above gound subway station...




KPF


I was ok with the original design.


This is a waste of money and land.