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Thread: 200 Chambers Street - Tribeca - Condo - by Costas Kondylis

  1. #16

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    From The Tribeca Trib

    CB1 Gives Counterproposals for Site 5C

    by Ronald Drenger

    Community Board 1 last month presented three building proposals that it said would be more appropriate for Site 5C, behind P.S. 234, than the 35-story residential tower that the city wants to see built there.

    Frank Fish, a planning consultant hired by CB1, presented the alternatives at a June 26 hearing on the scope of a study that the city is preparing of the development’s impact on traffic, congestion, schools, parks and public services in the neighborhood.

    The tallest of the community’s proposals would be for a 25-story building along West Street, between Chambers and Warren streets, with four-story wings extending along the side streets toward P.S. 234. Its other suggestions are for a 13-story building with 10-story extentions or a 23-story tower with one eight-story portion on Chambers Street.

    The city and its chosen developer, Jack Resnick and Sons, have trimmed the size of the plan that they presented to CB1 in May, cutting five floors off the 40-story tower and reducing the number of apartments from 540 to 488. The development also includes an 18,000-square-foot community center..

    But CB1, P.S. 234 parent leaders and local elected officials said that the project is still much too big. They warned that the project will choke already congested streets and sidewalks, cast shadows on Washington Market Park and overwhelm P.S 234 and P.S. 89 with new students. (See story, page 5.)

    “The size of the building being proposed for 5C is taller than buildings in Battery Park City, and Battery Park City is no comparison to Tribeca,” said Madelyn Wils, CB1’s chairwoman. Tribeca became a successful residential neighborhood through zoning and landmarking changes in the 1990’s that preserved the low-rise character of the neighborhood, Wils said

    Community representatives said Murray Street should be considered the boundary between the high-rise Financial District and Tribeca, and that the impact of the 5C plan must be considered together with an even bigger building, up to 65 stories, that the city wants to build on Site 5B, across Warren Street from P.S. 234.

    “The welfare of over 700 Tribeca families who choose to send their children to their neighborhood school will be greatly impacted by any development of these two sites,” said Tim Johnson, the incoming PTA president at P.S. 234.

    George Olsen, Johnson’s predecessor, suggested moving the dog run behind P.S. 234 to part of Site 5C where the city’s plan calls for a public plaza, to make room for the school’s expansion.

    Janel Patterson, spokeswoman for the city’s Economic Development Corporation, which is overseeing development on Sites 5B and 5C, declined to comment on the community’s suggestions. *

    the community's proposal

    Foster's proposal

    (Edited by Derek2k3 at 4:23 pm on July 7, 2003)

  2. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    New York City

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    *Looks at the Foster Proposal*

    *Looks at the community's proposal*

    *Smacks himself in the head*

  3. #18
    Forum Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    New York City

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    If you want my opinion, neither of them are all that exceptional.

  4. #19

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    “We’ve become this little community that is going to be so overcrowded and hemmed in by these big buildings,” said P.S. 89 principal Ronnie Najjar. “We can’t accommodate that many new families.”

    AAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!! - That quote. *Talk about elitism. *They've become this "little community"? *And what? They decide who gets to join their exclusive little club? *It just makes my blood boil.

    I couldn't agree with you more. I'm betting that some of these 'tight-knit' low-rise NIMBY's went over repeatedly to the WTC meetings over the past several months chanting loudly "NO TALL BUILDINGS! NO TALL BUILDINGS!" :angry: Just the thought of that pisses me off. I mean, what do these people want for New York?

    (Edited by Agglomeration at 11:00 pm on July 8, 2003)

  5. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    New York City

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    Seriously, New York City was not meant to *house Nimby's....

    The City and Nimby's don't match...whatever, I just hate Nimby's

  6. #21

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    I agree with you, TLOZ Link5, I expected more from Foster. That said... to Agglomeration's point...

    I know what you mean and I feel the same way...

    So, get involved...

    If you walk down the street and ask New Yorkers, 'Hey, do you like skyscrapers?' Even in a post 9-11 world most say, "Yeah!" And if you ask if they'd like to see more, "absolutely, build them taller!" New Yorkers are competitive by nature, it's what attracts people to the city, and Skyscrapers and New York are almost synonymous in most people's minds. But the flip side is that they're not evangelical about it the way the vocal minority of nay-sayers are.

    So, don't sit around on your computer and fuss on a skyscraper forum, you're preaching to the choir. Goto the community board meetings, bring some friends, and speak up. Kick up a fuss where it might make a difference.

  7. #22

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    Not an inspiring rendering, and will probably get nitpicked
    to death.

    The debate has been about building height, but with the reality that the downtown population will dramatically increase anyway, it should be about where to build the school.

    The city owns both sites 5B and 5C. I know they want to maximize profit, but maybe a compromise. Build/expand a school on one site, and a tall building on the other.

    Chris is right about CB meetings. The CB members are influenced by the audience, and they in turn influence the City Council.

  8. #23
    Banned Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Park Slope, Brooklyn, NY

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    I asked this in another thread...

    Are CB votes binding or can the city override?

  9. #24

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    CB votes and City Council votes are different domains. The City Council is the city's legislative body; CBs are advisory bodies. The members are non salaried, and appointed by the borough president. Half are nominated by council members whose districts include the CB.

    There are provisions in the City Charter on how city government officials must interact with CBs. For example, all land-use issues must come before the CB. *

  10. #25

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    July 25, 2003

    Plans for 2 Towers Near TriBeCa Raise Concern


    A 35-story residential building is planned for a long-vacant lot two blocks north of the World Trade Center site, and an even taller apartment tower is being considered for the adjacent parcel, leaving residents of the low-lying 19th-century buildings in nearby TriBeCa concerned about crowding.

    The 35-story building is being designed by Norman Foster, the British architect who, among other projects, remodeled the Reichstag in Berlin and designed London City Hall.

    Bernard D'Orazio, president of Save Our Space, a neighborhood nonprofit group, said he was "gravely concerned about enormous residential towers beside what is predominantly a low-rise historic district."

    "The community's position is that both of these sites should be planned and developed together in order to preserve our community," he said.

    The two parcels — officially referred to as Sites 5B and 5C — are remnants of what for more than 100 years was the Washington Street Market, the city's primary fruit and vegetable district until the 1960's, when the market was moved to Hunts Point in the Bronx. Soon after, an 11-block-long, 3-block-wide swath of mostly cast-iron mercantile buildings stretching from Barclay Street on the south to Hubert Street on the north and from Greenwich Street on the east to the Hudson River was leveled.

    And over the years, on what was designated as the Washington Street Urban Renewal Area, large buildings and complexes were built, including the towers of Independence Plaza North, a 1,500-apartment Mitchell-Lama development; Manhattan Community College; the St. John's University Manhattan campus; and the Citigroup Building. Also built on the site were Public School 234 and a one-acre oval of green space called Washington Market Park, with a wrought-iron gazebo, a wading pool and a community garden.

    Across Greenwich Street from the park is TriBeCa, where late-19th-century corniced loft buildings with arched windows are now interspersed with new 10- and 12-story apartment buildings with terraces and bay windows that evoke the style of the older buildings.

    What remains on the urban renewal property is Site 5B, a 90,560-square-foot lot, and Site 5C, at 34,257 square feet, where the Norman Foster building is planned. In 2001, the New York City Economic Development Corporation chose Minskoff Equities to develop 5B as a commercial building. But development did not proceed, because no major tenant was found.

    Now, said Janel Patterson, a spokeswoman for the Economic Development Corporation, "on 5B, we are examining our options to develop it as residential, with some retail." Mr. D'Orazio contended that zoning for the lot would allow construction of a building as high as 60 floors.

    The designated developer for the smaller site, 5C, is Jack Resnick & Sons. Under the provisions of the 40-year urban renewal plan, a 135-foot-high residential building was allowed for the site. However, on Jan. 1, 2002, the plan expired. And at a public meeting held by the Economic Development Corporation on June 26, the plan offered by the Resnick company called for a 360-foot-high, 35-story market-rate rental building with about 480 apartments, 12,000 square feet of retail space, a 90-car parking garage and a community facility.

    Madelyn Wils, chairwoman of Community Board 1, is worried about overpopulation. In 1980, according to census figures, there were 15,918 people living in the community board district; by 2000, that had more than doubled to 32,116. "We're all for housing," Ms. Wils said. "But Lower Manhattan has been burgeoning. We have 12,000 units coming on line since the 2000 census, which would increase our population by 75 percent by 2005."

    Scott Resnick, president of the Resnick company, declined to comment on his company's proposal for Site 5C. Pointing out that the plan for Site 5C must still go through a public review process, Ms. Patterson of the Economic Development Corporation said, "In our negotiations, we are responding to community desires."

    Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company

  11. #26

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    Foster's proposal is boring. It looks like it's straight out of 1962. Even architects who are considered "world class" produce boring schlock.

  12. #27
    Forum Veteran
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    West Harlem

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    Just so you don't completely bash the design, remember that it's from one side only and not exactly closeup. It looks a bit like a rendering designed to give the public a massing idea, with a note of a glass facade.

  13. #28

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    With all due respect, it looks like a finished rendering to me. Then again how could I possibly know one way or the other?

  14. #29
    Forum Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    New York City

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    This building was only recently proposed, at least in real estate terms. *The initial renderings generally don't make for final designs.

  15. #30

    Default A Foster Building in Lower Manhattan?

    From the Downtown Express:

    Community leaders cool to P.S. 234 expansion idea

    By Elizabeth O’Brien

    Drawing of a proposed two-story expansion of P.S. 234 which includes six new classrooms. The dog run behind the school would move to Site 5C, a proposed new residential site.

    With the population of Lower Manhattan expected to balloon over the next several years, the community has begun debating the merits of building an addition to P.S 234 to accommodate the anticipated influx of new students.

    George Olsen, outgoing president of the P.T.A. at P.S. 234, has led an initiative to add up to six new classrooms to the Tribeca school. He recently asked an architectural firm to sketch rough plans for the expansion. One scheme would involve two stories of three classrooms each, and the other would involve three stories of two classrooms each.

    While most community members agree that overcrowding poses a serious threat to P.S. 234, not everyone is certain that an addition represents the best way to address it.

    “I think the answer to the problem is another school,” said Paul Hovitz, chairperson of the youth and education committee for Community Board 1.

    Hovitz worried that building an addition would appear to justify the increased enrollment at the school. He also wondered if substantial growth would dilute the strength of the top-ranked elementary school.

    As early as this fall, P.S. 234 will likely have more than 700 students, over 100 students above its capacity. Even more students are expected to enroll over the next few years, as at least 8,173 new residential units are built south of Canal St. Some of the units will be built right on P.S. 234’s doorstep: about 500 apartments are slated for construction on the Site 5C development just west of the school.

    Under the expansion idea, the dog run behind the school would be moved to part of Site 5C and the school yard would shift to the south to make room for the expansion.

    Madelyn Wils, chairperson of C.B. 1, said that P.S. 234 has found ways to accommodate its expected enrollment this fall, but she stressed that long-term solutions would still be needed to alleviate the overcrowding. Wils said she had seen the architectural sketches Olsen provided for the 234 addition but declined to comment at this time.

    P.S. 234 is converting office space to classrooms in order to accommodate the expected overcrowding this September.

    Olsen, a member of C.B. 1 and a real estate attorney, said that he supports the idea of building a new school. But he argued that the community should also push the developers of the neighboring lots to help fund and build an addition to P.S. 234. In addition to 5C, the 5B lot across the street from P.S. 234 is slated for a 38-story commercial development.

    “If you look at [5B and 5C] together you can look at what the community should get.” Olsen noted that both P.S. 234 and P.S./I.S. 89 in Battery Park City were built by developers as concessions to the community. He did not have a cost estimate for the expansion.

    Scott Resnick, the developer of 5C, has already included plans for an 18,000 sq. ft. community center in the site plans. Bob Townley, executive director of Manhattan Youth, a non-profit organization that runs after school programs at P.S. 234 and other schools, said that the center would become “the anchor community amenity,” and he declined to comment on the possible school expansion.

    Olsen said that the large scope of the planned projects near P.S. 234, and the resulting pressures on the local infrastructure, mean that the developers should help fund both the community center and the P.S. 234 addition.

    Scott Resnick declined on Monday to address the possibility of his funding the P.S. 234 expansion, but said, “We’re very anxious to work with the community in a productive fashion.”

    Olsen acknowledged that Anna Switzer, the former principal of P.S. 234, and Sandy Bridges, the incoming principal, would prefer working with the Department of Education to limit the school’s enrollment instead of building an extension. Neither Switzer nor Bridges was available for comment.

    Olsen stressed that while a new school was a good long-term goal, the community should not lose the opportunity to pressure developers for more concessions.

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