View Poll Results: Construction is underway, how do you feel about the final design for the WTC site?

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  • I am more than satisfied; I believe that the final design surpasses that of the original World Trade Center. 10/10

    50 26.04%
  • While nothing may ever live up to the Twin Towers, I am wholly satisfied with the new World Trade Center; it is a new symbol for a new era. 7/10

    55 28.65%
  • I have come to terms with the new World Trade Center; although it has a number of flaws, I find the design to be acceptable. 5/10

    48 25.00%
  • I am wholly disappointed with the New World Trade Center; we will live to regret the final design. 0/10

    22 11.46%
  • I am biased, but honest, and hate anything that is not a reincarnation of the original Twin Towers.

    17 8.85%
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Thread: World Trade Center Developments

  1. #2536
    Build the Tower Verre antinimby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp
    How exactly did the public screw up the WTC development?
    What vote/concensus?
    You've misunderstood or perhaps I was too vague? Either way, Dave ^ seems to understand what I was talking about.
    Of course, I wasn't talking about the public voting in the literal sense. I said that I agreed with the statement that having inputs from multiple parties in any project can be a detriment. Having one entity take charge, such as the Port Authority in this case, sometimes can be more effective in getting the job done and without the delays.
    Of course, like Dave above pointed out, both ways (either democratically as he puts it or having a sole agency take charge) has their downsides and finding that right mix can be difficult. I just feel that, in this city, at this time, we are leaning too far in the "democratic" direction and projects such as the WTC always gets bogged down by beauracracy, lawsuits, protests, etc.

  2. #2537
    Build the Tower Verre antinimby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davestanke
    But democratic planning may be better than Doctoroff and Burden. Not good, but possibly better.
    I agree, but only if it is done right and not allowed get out of hand.

  3. #2538

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    Quote Originally Posted by antinimby
    Of course, I wasn't talking about the public voting in the literal sense. I said that I agreed with the statement that having inputs from multiple parties in any project can be a detriment. Having one entity take charge, such as the Port Authority in this case, sometimes can be more effective in getting the job done and without the delays.
    The preference for one entity building a project without any input from other sources makes a big assumption that the entity has it right in the first place.

    The PA and the LMDC made an error in presenting the process of gathering information as a competition among plans. As owner of the site, the PA should have taken that information, combined it with its own infrastructure requirements, consulted with the leaseholders, and sent out an RFP for a site plan. Interested parties would have invested their resources and responded with proposals. The plan (or plans) would have been presented, along with no-build and rebuild options in the only official public process document - the EIS.

    Instead, we had a "competition," two "finalists" were chosen, and Pataki overruled an impending vote by the LMDC and chose Libeskind. Silverstein hired his own architect, and we're off to the races. In spite of this, the plan sailed through the EIS, and rebuilding could have started.

    Excluding the memorial, the PA had problems with only one entity - Silverstein, with whom they have a love-hate relationship. They wanted him out of the way, but liked his insurance money and $120 million rent payments. They should have resolved their differences with him long ago, or if they wanted him out, gone to court to terminate the lease.

    There was no one to stop the PA from starting construction on the eastern bathtub immediately after the site plan was approved. If they had done so, the debate over whether site 2 should be developed before the FT would not involve any further delays.

    In my opinion, the PA received too little input from the city over the last year, while Bloomberg and Doctoroff had their heads stuck in the West Side railyards. Their noise now sounds hallow,

  4. #2539

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    I'm sorry, what is an EIS?

    Excellent post, Zippy.

  5. #2540
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    I think an EIS is an Environmental Impact Study.

  6. #2541

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    Federal and State mandated Environmental Impact Statement.

    Normally, large projects in NYC also require a ULURP (Uniform Land Use Review Procedure), but not at the WTC, which is not city controlled.

  7. #2542

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    The NYC airports are finally beginning to look good after literally decades of neglect by the port, or didn't you ever use a NYC airport in the 1980s? And, it's noteworthy that, for instance, T4 at JFK was only finally upgraded after a private entity got involved.

    I'd prefer private companies to run the airports (that's not the way most airports run in the US, unfortunately -- almost all are controlled by municipalities that run them as patronage farms). But if they have to be run by municipalities I'd far rather they were controlled separately by New York and Newark -- which would then at least compete.

    By the way, nice cheap shot with DPW. So far as I know, DPW doesn't run a single airport anywhere, not even Dubai. The big airport companies are British, Spanish, German, Australian, etc. BAA does run, under contract, Indianapolis airport, for instance (in fact the entire Indianapolis airport system).

    Quote Originally Posted by STT757
    If you don't like either running the airports than you can get a Private company like BAA or DPW to run them, unfortuanately both are Foreign companies and I don't think Congress wants "Arabs" running NYC's three major airports.

  8. #2543
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    The NYC airports are finally beginning to look good after literally decades of neglect by the port, or didn't you ever use a NYC airport in the 1980s? And, it's noteworthy that, for instance, T4 at JFK was only finally upgraded after a private entity got involved.
    .

    Im 30 years old, born in Staten Island and raised in Jersey. I've flown out of EWR, JFK and LGA hundreds of times. Every airline from Eastern, Pan Am, NY Air, PeoplExpress, Piedmont, US Air, Continental, Delta, American etc..

    If your complaining that the NYC Airports were run down in the Eighties and Ninties, you should see what MIA, BOS, PHL, IAD, ATL, SFO all looked like. Compare EWR, JFK and LGA today to LAX which handles twice the passengers per year as EWR or JFK, LAX handles twice the Traffic as NY's airports and is a dump!.

    Compared to most major airports in the US EWR, JFK and LGA are very well run and modern.

  9. #2544

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    Quote Originally Posted by STT757
    .

    Im 30 years old, born in Staten Island and raised in Jersey. I've flown out of EWR, JFK and LGA hundreds of times. Every airline from Eastern, Pan Am, NY Air, PeoplExpress, Piedmont, US Air, Continental, Delta, American etc..

    If your complaining that the NYC Airports were run down in the Eighties and Ninties, you should see what MIA, BOS, PHL, IAD, ATL, SFO all looked like. Compare EWR, JFK and LGA today to LAX which handles twice the passengers per year as EWR or JFK, LAX handles twice the Traffic as NY's airports and is a dump!.

    Compared to most major airports in the US EWR, JFK and LGA are very well run and modern.
    even detroit has a nicer airport then NY

  10. #2545
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    By the way, nice cheap shot with DPW. So far as I know, DPW doesn't run a single airport anywhere, not even Dubai
    .

    If your familiar with the Emirates you would know how much the Emir loves aviation, his airline Emirates is an industry joke. They buy insane amounts of widebody aircraft (777-300ERs, A380s) that the small Emirate really does not need, they are investing heavily in aviation and mark my words will be in the business of running airports like the Ports.

    DPW got involved with Port Newark/ Elizabeth through the takeover of the British firm P&O, BAA will eventually be a takeover target of the Emir.

    It's only a matter of time.

  11. #2546
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    New Navy Ship Being Built With WTC Steel

    NEW YORK, Apr. 3, 2006
    (AP)



    (AP) With a year to go before it even touches the water, the Navy's amphibious assault ship USS New York has already made history _ twice. It was built with 24 tons of scrap steel from the World Trade Center, and it survived Hurricane Katrina.

    That combination of disasters gives the ship a unique standing among the 500 or so Avondale, La., shipyard workers building it, said Tony Quaglino, a crane superintendent who postponed retirement to have a hand in the New York's construction.

    "I think Katrina made us more aware of the tragedy in New York," said the 66-year-old Quaglino. "One was manmade, one was natural, but they're both a common bond."

    USS New York is about 45 percent complete and should be ready for launch in mid-2007. Katrina disrupted construction when it pounded the Gulf Coast last summer, but the 684-foot vessel escaped serious damage, and workers were back at the yard near New Orleans two weeks after the storm.

    The ship was an impetus for many of the yard's thousands of workers to return to the job, even though hundreds lost their homes, Quaglino and others said.

    Northrop Grumman employed 6,500 at Avondale before Katrina. Today, roughly 5,500 are back on the job, working on the New York and three other vessels. More than 200 employees who lost their homes to Katrina are living at the shipyard, some on a Navy barge and others in bunk-style housing.

    "Their dedication and devotion to duty has been, to say the least, epic," Philip Teel, a vice president for Northrop Grumman Corp. and head of its ship systems division, told a Navy League dinner audience in New York on March 22.

    "It sounds trite, but I saw it in their eyes," Teel said in a separate interview. "These are very patriotic people, and the fact that the ship has steel from the trade center is a source of great pride. They view it as something incredibly special. They're building it for the nation."

    USS New York is the fifth in a new class of warship _ designed for missions that include special operations against terrorists. It will carry a crew of 360 sailors and 700 combat-ready Marines to be delivered ashore by helicopters and assault craft.

    "It would be fitting if the first mission this ship would go on is to make sure that bin Laden is taken out, his terrorist organization is taken out," said Glenn Clement, a paint foreman. "He came in through the back door and knocked our towers down and (the New York) is coming right through the front door, and we want them to know that."

    When terrorists crashed two jetliners into the World Trade Center on Sept. 11, 2001, destroying the twin towers and killing nearly 2,800 people, the $700 million ship was already on the drawing board but had not been assigned a name.

    Months later, New York Gov. George Pataki asked the Navy to commemorate the disaster by reviving the name New York for a ship whose role would include fighting terrorism. That required an exception to Navy policy of assigning state names only to nuclear submarines, as they had been to battleships in earlier era.

    Then-Navy Secretary Gordon England, in announcing the decision, said the New York would "project American power to the far corners of the Earth and support the cause of freedom well into the 21st century." Its motto is "Never Forget," a slogan among New Yorkers since Sept. 11.

    Steel from the World Trade Center was melted down in a foundry in Amite, La., to cast the ship's bow section. When it was poured into the molds on Sept. 9, 2003, "those big rough steelworkers treated it with total reverence," recalled Navy Capt. Kevin Wensing, who was there. "It was a spiritual moment for everybody there."

    Junior Chavers, foundry operations manager, said that when the trade center steel first arrived, he touched it with his hand and the "hair on my neck stood up."

    "It had a big meaning to it for all of us," he said. "They knocked us down. They can't keep us down. We're going to be back."

    The next big event came on March 14, when shipyard cranes lifted that bow section and guided it into place with the rest of the hull.

    Later ships in the class will include USS Arlington, the location of the Pentagon, also struck by a hijacked jetliner on Sept. 11, and USS Somerset, named for the Pennsylvania county where United Flight 93 crashed after its passengers fought off hijackers apparently planning to attack another Washington target.

    The New York revives a name borne by at least seven previous ships _ most recently the nuclear submarine SSN New York City, retired in 1997 after 18 years service.


    __________________________________________________ ___

    It looks like the old FT design in that pic. It's U/C but appears to be the slanted roof of the old and forgotten (thankfully) Childs/Libeskind design.

  12. #2547
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyO
    It looks like the old FT design in that pic...
    And look how stubby and awkward it looks from that angle ... yikes.

  13. #2548

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    How did they manage to put it behind the Financial Center???

  14. #2549

    Default More Crapola From the NY Times

    April 5, 2006
    Op-Ed Contributor
    Take Back the Towers
    By DENNIS SMITH


    THE effort to rebuild the World Trade Center site continues to go nowhere. The planned memorial lacks start-up money and faces public indifference. Those behind the proposed museum have not shown that they have any clear idea how to represent the memory of a day of murder, pain and loss. And most important, there is no real government-business-real estate coalition supporting the commercial plans of the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation and the developer Larry Silverstein, who holds the lease.

    We've reached a stage where the state and local government, so often the causes of delay, are the only players with the ability to move things forward. It is time for them to invoke their trump card: the takings clause of the United States Constitution.

    To understand why, consider how all facets of the project have reached the point of inertia. Those behind the memorial, centered on its two reflecting pools, have still not satisfied the public or the politicians on several aesthetic questions.

    For example, the memorial must display the names of those who died at ground zero, the Pentagon and Shanksville, Pa., as well as those killed in the 1993 attack on the twin towers. But to the consternation of many (perhaps most) of the 9/11 families, the designers seem determined to place the names haphazardly, and without reference to time or place of death.

    The debate over the names points to a larger problem: many in the artistic community seem unable to accept the influence that the families of the victims have among the public. Until the designers understand the role of the families and that they are building over a tomb bodies of hundreds of the 2,749 who died there were never recovered the project will languish. As for the museum, the most obvious setback was the disastrous decision to have it house the controversial International Freedom Center, which was eventually reversed by Gov. George Pataki. But since then, another series of seemingly intractable issues has arisen: the footprint space and exhibition areas have been reduced, there are problems with handicapped access, there have been warnings that crowd movement could be dangerous in an emergency and, most important, Alice Greenwald, the director, has yet to say what specifically the museum will contain.

    Finally, of course, there is the problem of financing. It is too late to say that the money should have been raised before the design of the memorial and associated projects was accepted. But it seems clear that corporations and individual benefactors are reluctant to pony up the half-billion dollars needed for an effort with so many unanswered questions attached to it.

    There is only one way to move forward: Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the City Council should send a home-rule message to Albany and demand the confiscation of the World Trade Center site under the eminent domain clause. At a time when counties and municipalities across America are seizing houses and small businesses to build shopping malls just to increase their tax bases, there are plenty of justifiable reasons included lost tax revenues to demand the return of ground zero.

    Is taking the site legally practicable? "As long as the land were used for public purposes such as monuments, museums, or other public buildings, it can certainly be condemned under the U.S. Constitution," says Vicki Been, a professor of real-estate law at New York University Law School. "Even if some (or most) of the land were transferred to private parties to build commercial or residential space, the Supreme Court has held that such economic development is a public purpose."

    The alternative waiting for the current players to get their act together makes no sense. Even if the project were to regain momentum, the plan is to build 10 million square feet of commercial space that is not only unneeded but will also mostly fail to rent. The Freedom Tower will be an eyesore as well as a terrorist target, and few will want to work there.

    Mayor Bloomberg has recognized the financial folly of such large-scale building in an area that needs careful neighborhood development. With his business skills and political savvy, he is the natural choice to become chief engineer and contractor of a smaller, smarter, more appropriate ground zero.

    Four decades ago, the 12 blocks that form the trade center site were taken through eminent domain from a group of electronics merchants and other small-business owners. That was David Rockefeller's idea, and his brother Gov. Nelson Rockefeller made it happen. Now it is up to Governor Pataki to give Mr. Bloomberg a similar opportunity. Ground zero does not belong to the Port Authority or the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation or Larry Silverstein. It is our property. We should get it back.

    Dennis Smith, a retired New York City firefighter, is the chairman of a financial services company for first responders.

  15. #2550
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    This might work for those who want to spend the rest of their lives in court rooms ...
    There is only one way to move forward: Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the City Council should send a home-rule message to Albany and demand the confiscation of the World Trade Center site under the eminent domain clause ... demand the return of ground zero.

    Is taking the site legally practicable? "As long as the land were used for public purposes such as monuments, museums, or other public buildings, it can certainly be condemned under the U.S. Constitution ... the Supreme Court has held that such economic development is a public purpose."

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