View Poll Results: Construction is underway, how do you feel about the final design for the WTC site?

192. You may not vote on this poll
  • I am more than satisfied; I believe that the final design surpasses that of the original World Trade Center. 10/10

    50 26.04%
  • While nothing may ever live up to the Twin Towers, I am wholly satisfied with the new World Trade Center; it is a new symbol for a new era. 7/10

    55 28.65%
  • I have come to terms with the new World Trade Center; although it has a number of flaws, I find the design to be acceptable. 5/10

    48 25.00%
  • I am wholly disappointed with the New World Trade Center; we will live to regret the final design. 0/10

    22 11.46%
  • I am biased, but honest, and hate anything that is not a reincarnation of the original Twin Towers.

    17 8.85%
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Thread: World Trade Center Developments

  1. #3136
    Banned Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Park Slope, Brooklyn, NY


    There is a paralysis in New Orleans the likes of which never took hold in NYC after 9/11. Here we at least cleaned up the mess and got the city back to work. In NO, the mess is on the streets and it is systemic. New York works. New Orleans doesn't. (of course, with half the population missing - how could it?)

  2. #3137
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    NYC - Downtown


    Hmmm ...

    Might have something to do with 16 + acres v. 900 square miles

  3. #3138
    Moderator NYatKNIGHT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Manhattan - South Village


    Right. They shouldn't have been compared in the first place.

  4. #3139


    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    The debate over the retail is not community generated. City government and the Port Authority have opposing viewpoints on the location of the retail. Also, it is a worthwhile argument. You will find that people on this forum are not in agreement on whether Cortlandt St should be enclosed. It is nothing like what is going on at Atlantic Yards.

    BPC already mentioned the Deutsche Bank building. And the reason for the delay in deconstruction is incompetence by the government and the incompetent companies they hired.
    You obviously haven't been paying attention to every detail. I may or may not have posted the articles here, but you can search if you like. I know from reading the community newspapers at least that concerns about the retail and deconstruction of the Deutsche Bank building comes from neighborhood residents. To deny it is foolish.

  5. #3140


    Quote Originally Posted by BigMac View Post
    August 25, 2006

    New Orleans' mayor criticizes New York's WTC delays

    'You guys in New York can't get a hole in the ground fixed'

    He may not have been politically correct, but he speaks the truth. We're only just now beginning to get things going. Let's not forget the fighting and unneccessary delays that we've dealt with so far. The rebuilt 7 WTC stands as a testament to what could have been accomplished.

  6. #3141


    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Fer instance?
    Older articles:

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown Express
    July 23 - 29, 2004
    Deutsche demo raises concerns

    By Elizabeth O’Brien

    Officials must take action to protect Downtowners from high levels of toxins in the Deutsche Bank building when the 40-story tower is dismantled across from ground zero, U.S. Rep. Jerrold Nadler said this week.

    The vacant building at 130 Liberty St., shrouded in black netting since 9/11, contains concentrations of asbestos in certain places that are nearly 150,000 times the acceptable level, according to court documents released by Nadler at a July 19 news conference........

    Community board members and other residents voiced fears about the potential environmental impact of the deconstruction. “Those contaminants better stay within that perimeter,” said Catherine Hughes, a Community Board 1 member who lives near the site. “Once it’s out, it’s hard to clean up.”

    .......After the meeting, residents gathered around L.M.D.C. president Kevin Rampe and peppered him with questions and concerns about the procedure. “I think you’re not being productive,” Rampe responded to one resident.

    Andy Jurinko, the resident, said the next day, “I don’t think this is an easy situation for anyone, but I think his remarks were insensitive.”

    Jurinko, who lives just blocks from the site at 125 Cedar St., said he was particularly concerned about the safety of the huge crane that will be used, especially since winds in the area can gust up to 75 miles per hour.

    Some residents echoed Nadler’s demand that the Environmental Protection Agency take charge of the Deutsche Bank deconstruction.

    Here's more:

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown Express
    April 21 - 27, 2006
    More E.P.A. concerns, more demolition delays

    By Ronda Kaysen

    Environmental concerns have delayed the demolition of three buildings near the World Trade Center site, evoking fears among local residents that their neighborhood is still contaminated.

    This week, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority halted the demolition of 189 Broadway, a two-story building that is being dismantled to make way for the new Fulton Street Transit Hub, after local residents and political leaders voiced doubts about the demolition process.
    More community concerns...

    Quote Originally Posted by Daily News
    December 31, 2005
    Scariest building in New York

    Jitters over demolition of toxic tower near WTC


    The 40-story shell at 130 Liberty St. stands as a ghastly testament to the devastation of 9/11; to many residents of downtown Manhattan, it is the scariest building in New York.

    The former Deutsche Bank headquarters, located on the edge of Ground Zero, is filled with a toxic brew of asbestos, lead, cadmium, dioxin, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and other poisons deposited after the collapse of the twin towers. And now, the planned demolition of the structure — scheduled to begin later this month — has ignited passionate fears that the neighborhood again will be exposed to a cloud of contaminated debris.

    Public hearings on the demolition have been packed. The only problem: The public hasn't been allowed to speak or ask questions. Furious protesters, including local residents and environmental activists, repeatedly disrupted one recent meeting, shouting down speaker after speaker. Some placed blue tape over their mouths to symbolize being gagged.

    "Why are you censoring the victim?" shouted one red-faced man.

    "Take your speeches outside!" bellowed Michael Haberman, a spokesman for the Lower Manhattan Development Corp., which oversees post-9/11 rebuilding downtown and now owns 130 Liberty St.

    ...... many local residents fear that the scariest building in New York is about to become much scarier.

    In the coming weeks, the LMDC is scheduled to begin the job of tearing it down, floor by floor.

    Contractors have begun erecting scaffolding all the way to the top. Within the next two weeks, workers are scheduled to begin cleaning the poisonous interior. With most buildings, that wouldn't be a big deal. But nearby residents fear the deconstruction will be a bit like Pandora deciding to open that little box.

    ......For months, tensions have been rising over 130 Liberty's demise.

    "We constantly have to be on our guard," Mark Scherzer, a lawyer whose kitchen window looks out at the building, told a News reporter at a recent hearing. "It hasn't been that we've been able to feel comfortable, that we're protected, that we go to sleep comfortably at night."

    Esther Rogelson, who lives a block away on Washington St., said, "There's lip service and no real concrete plan for the people in the neighborhood. . . . It's really a danger to the community."

    At a recent Community Board 1 meeting, the friction was obvious when Fire Department Acting Borough Commander John Coloe tried to downplay potential dangers. "One-thirty Liberty is not some nuclear device ready to detonate," he said. The crowd erupted, shouting out a litany of fears, from crane collapses to building collapses to the possibility of an accidental toxic release.

    Fears aren't limited to toxic dust. Many residents are afraid the demolition of such a large building in close proximity to residential apartments is, in and of itself, unsafe.

    LMDC has tried to calm fears by repeatedly vowing to complete a safe, "transparent" deconstruction of 130 Liberty by keeping the public informed of its plans at all times.
    Enough of that.

  7. #3142


    What about that retail anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribecatrib
    Planning for Retail at the World Trade Center Site

    by Barry Owens
    November 9, 2004

    Once the World Trade Center memorial is built, the next highest priority for the site is retail-about 1 million square feet of it-according to a retail study presented to Community Board 1 on Nov. 8.

    The report, commissioned by Friends of Community Board 1, the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the Lower Manhattan Development Corp. and the Downtown Alliance, is the product of a "summit" of experts in real estate, land use planning, retail, and urban development who gathered in October to tour the site and offer their ideas for the development of stores and commerce. It lays out a broad template, but few specifics, for planners to consider as they set out to rebuild the site and the neighborhood around it.

    "You can't take the site and surrounding blocks and just chop them up into different types of retail. The area needs to have a flow," said Corrigan. In that flow, she said, there should be a mix of boutiques, large "destination type" retailers, perhaps a movie theater and definitely a supermarket.

    "Let's not forget about tailors, shoe repair and laundry places. We'll still need those," cautioned board member Catherine McVay Hughes. "I don't think we want only big retail."

    The report estimates the World Trade Center site would be home to 250,000, requiring enough retail space to accommodate them, along with the needs of workers in the 17,500 firms in Lower Manhattan and the 13,700 tourists expected to visit the site each day.

    The report's list of viable retail options for the site's storefront and concourse levels reads like the Yellow Pages: Restaurants, books, music, electronics, jewelry, apparel, department stores, and museums.

    "What we're trying to do is create an alternative to traveling up to midtown to get this stuff," Corrigan said.

    While Corrigan suggested that a "unified" development group should oversee the project for continuity sake, the shopping district should not resemble a mall.

    "This should be the antithesis of the mall," she said.

    As the rebuilding of Lower Manhattan moves forward, said Corrigan, at least 300,000 square feet of ground level retail space should be included in the first phase of construction at the site, a "champion" for retail should be selected to push the project, and there should be further consideration of "depressing'" West Street to better integrate Battery Park City into the market place. The proposal to bury a portion of West Street is a controversial one, opposed by an organized group of Battery Park City residents.

    These are "just suggestions," she told the board.
    Of course they are...

    Trade Center Would Keep Retail Space Underground


    Plans for an underground concourse at the World Trade Center would allow for the building of several hundred thousand square feet of retail space below ground, or nearly as much as existed at the site before the 2001 attack, officials from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey said yesterday. raising the possibility that a large amount of the site's retail stores might be located underground, along the passageways connecting the PATH commuter line, various subway lines and the World Financial Center, the Port Authority brought to light a looming conflict with city officials and many downtown residents.

    Since the trade center was destroyed, downtown residents and civic groups have said retail space at and around the site should be built at ground level. Doing so, they have said, would reinvigorate street life downtown, something that an indoor mall would not do.

    Westfield America, a shopping-mall company that, as a partner of Silverstein Properties, holds the rights to lease retail space at the trade center, favors enclosed retail space, much like that in the former concourse at the site.

    Anthony G. Cracchiolo, the Port Authority's director of priority capital programs, told a joint meeting of the City Council's Transportation and Lower Manhattan Redevelopment Committees, "We're looking at options both above and below grade.

    "We believe the retail development could occur both as part of the transportation facilities, as it occurs in Grand Central Station, for example, and above grade, integrating with the street life," Mr. Cracchiolo said.

    Robert Davidson, the Port Authority's chief architect, said the plans for underground retail space were not intended to conflict with street life, but rather to enhance it. "All we're doing is offering up a viable alternative on those days where if you can help it you don't want to be out there" on the street, usually because of bad weather," Mr. Davidson said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Downtown Express
    January 7 - 12, 2006
    Port, city do retail politics in retail dispute

    By Ronda Kaysen

    For such a little street, Cortlandt St. is getting an awful lot of attention. Two government agencies proposed opposing plans for the block-long street that connects the World Trade Center site to Broadway at a Community Board 1 meeting Wednesday night, with each side vying for the support of the community.

    The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which owns the World Trade Center, would like to enclose the street within a mall that would straddle both Towers 3 and 4. The city, which controls city streets and will control any streets running through the Trade Center, would like to extend the street to Greenwich St., keeping it open to pedestrians and vehicular traffic.

    “We have an opportunity to have a street here,” said Raymond Gastil, Manhattan director of City Planning, at the meeting. Cortlandt St. “is not just open to the street, it’s open to the sky. If you let it go, it’s never coming back.”

    The Port Authority envisions a Time Warner Center-like mall, open round the clock with a glass fronted entryway at Church St. leading visitors to ground floor retail, with two levels ascending above ground and two levels descending below ground. The closed-off street would serve as a public atrium for the mall.

    An enclosed mall would add 150,000 sq. ft. of retail to the neighborhood, mainly on the third floor, said Connors. Typically, third floor retail is difficult to rent, but Connors expects a mall will create an environment where a food court might thrive.

    Board chairperson Julie Menin balked at the idea of another food court in the neighborhood. “We really don’t want to see a repeat of the South Street Seaport and the failures of the Seaport,” she said, referring to the isolated food court on the third floor of Pier 17.

    Gastil was not convinced that keeping Cortlandt open would ultimately cost the neighborhood as much retail space as Connors suggested. “We want to see terrific retail at the World Trade Center site. We believe there’s ample opportunity for significant retail at the Trade Center site,” he said. “We don’t think this amount of retail is dependent on closing Cortlandt St.”

    Community board members appeared as divided as the two agencies about what to do with the street. While some expressed elation at the idea of an enclosed mall, others wondered if the Port Authority’s concerns were significant enough to enclose a city street in glass.

    “Do you actually think that having a street that would go for one block would serve any purpose?” asked board member Marc Donnenfeld.

    Some harked back fondly to the days of the Trade Center mall. “I’m not really scared that this will become a generic shopping mall,” said board member Tom Goodkind. “I see this as particular to our area of New York, which is a very special area… It seems very clear that enclosure is the most logical choice.”

    But not everyone was so eager to see the enclosed mall make a comeback. “I personally do not like malls. I shop in New Jersey when I want to go to a mall,” said board member Jeff Galloway. “I like the street grid. I feel like I’m in New York.”

  8. #3143
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    New Jersey


    there should be a mix of boutiques, large "destination type" retailers, perhaps a movie theater and definitely a supermarket.
    The City's first Nordstrum would be nice, as for Supermarkets Wegmans or Trader Joes would be my first choices.

  9. #3144


    Quote Originally Posted by NYguy View Post
    Enough of that.
    Enough of what?

    You wasted your time digging out articles on two issues I already explained.

    With the fight between Deutsche Bank and their insurers, the faulty testing by the EPA, the LMDC twice hiring incompetent companies, the finding of human remains on the roof which got the memorial families involved; that you would think residents questioning the safety of decontamination is obstructionist is hard to understand.

    The building only offends your visual sensibilities. Maybe you would have a broader outlook if you and your family lived near the building.

    Board chairperson Julie Menin balked at the idea of another food court in the neighborhood. “We really don’t want to see a repeat of the South Street Seaport and the failures of the Seaport,” she said, referring to the isolated food court on the third floor of Pier 17.
    Not wanting another South St Seaport is a bad thing?

    Community board members appeared as divided as the two agencies about what to do with the street.
    Thank you for reinforcing what I said earlier. Funny, it's right in the article title.
    Port, city do retail politics in retail dispute
    These are "just suggestions," she told the board
    So if a community board chair, with no executive power, decided not to make "suggestions," the Port Authority and City Hall would just stop arguing and flip a coin.

    You are confusing obstructionist activism with worthwhile debate. Tell us your position on the retail development. I guarantee no matter which side you're on, you will get contrary viewpoints from members of the forum. Or you can just search this thread. We've discussed it.

    And even if these two issues were obstructionist, exactly what have they held up? 130 Liberty is off the site, and had nothing to do with the two year delay in starting construction of 1WTC. I don't see anyone standing around, waiting to build retail on Cortlandt St. We don't even have an eastern bathtub yet. I know of no lawsuits initiated by resident groups.

    Is that all you've got?

  10. #3145


    Quote Originally Posted by BPC View Post
    Yes, a community victory which has quickened, not slowed, the redevelopment of the WTC site.
    And saved substancial, and now, obviously important funds.

    The community is fairly united in he idea of maximizing retail, but there is some disagreement about how to configure the retail. It has been my impression that City Hall is great at pulling in their theorists (out of neighborhood) to support street level retail while discounting the success of the much loved concorse from before 9/11. The theorists always support street level, because that is the way NY has always been.

    The truth about NY is that it is always changing, and the WTC is the perfect place for dumping old rules and thinking about what will work best with its unique blend of characteristics.

  11. #3146


    Quote Originally Posted by davestanke View Post
    It has been my impression that City Hall is great at pulling in their theorists (out of neighborhood) to support street level retail
    Street level retail is supported by the majority of residents and CB1.

    while discounting the success of the much loved concorse from before 9/11.
    That it was much loved was not universal. It was all we had, so we were a captive audience.

    The theorists always support street level, because that is the way NY has always been.
    Hardly a theory. It has been proven time and time again in all successful urban centers: cities exist and function on their streets.

    The truth about NY is that it is always changing, and the WTC is the perfect place for dumping old rules and thinking about what will work best with its unique blend of characteristics.
    No matter what, the planned mall space in the new WTC will be comparable to what existed. And hopefully, will not have the ambiance of a basement.

    The issue at hand is whether the failed street experience of the original will be repeated.

  12. #3147


    I had a telephone interview (actually, multiple choice answers) on Tuesday. It was conducted by a group called City Research, and while it wasn't stated, I am convinced that it is initiated or somehow connected to Silverstein.

    What made it obvious was that this question:


    How much of a role should Silverstein have in rebuilding the WTC?
    1. Major role.
    2. Minor role.
    3. No role.

    The question was asked again at least twice, at key positions in the list of questions.

    Evidently, there is still infighting.

  13. #3148
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Nairobi Hilton


    Fighting over the spoils.

  14. #3149


    wasnt sure of the relevant thread but in the wfc the wall section dedicated to the rebuilding is getting a complete revamp so hopefully we will see a complete new model of the site after the 7th!

  15. #3150


    NY Sun

    Developer, Architects Set To Unveil Ground Zero Designs

    By DAVID LOMBINO - Staff Reporter of the Sun
    September 1, 2006

    Designs for the east side of the former World Trade Center site will come to light on Thursday in a press conference featuring developer Larry Silverstein, officials from the Port Authority, and three acclaimed architects, Sir Norman Foster, Lord Richard Rogers, and Fumihiko Maki.

    While the design of the Freedom Tower and the World Trade Center Memorial have been through a bumpy public review process, the plans for the three soaring office towers proposed along Church Street have been sealed off behind closed doors. The three buildings will contain about 6.2 million square feet of office space, and will share a common podium and underground infrastructure, including retail space.

    Messrs. Rogers and Maki were officially named as architects in May, joining Mr. Foster and a bevy of other star architects working at ground zero. Since then, architects and engineers from their firms have been sharing office space and drawing up designs on the 25th floor of 7 World Trade Center, overlooking the site.

    The site's Master Plan, conceived by architect Daniel Libeskind, calls for three towers along Church Street with slanted roofs, descending in height from north to south.

    Mr. Silverstein said this week that it was a challenge to work with "three major egos," but he said that the result was "three truly magnificent architectural buildings."

    The executive director of the New York chapter of the American Institute of Architects, Fredric Bell, said the announcement would end five years of anticipation regarding the final look of ground zero.

    "This is a big deal. We are building another city here by most city's standards of urban planning," Mr. Bell said. "So far, the cards have been held pretty close to the chest."

    Mr. Bell said that selecting three well-known architects was a "safe bet," but he said there is some fear in the architectural community that the designs "will have nothing to do with each other, nothing with the site, and nothing with the Master Plan."

    The largest of the buildings, known as Tower 2, will be designed by Mr. Foster, whose work includes the recently completed Hearst Tower in Midtown and "The Gherkin" building in London. As planned, Tower 2 would be the fourth tallest building in New York.

    To the south of the new transportation hub, designed by architect Santiago Calatrava, will be Mr. Rogers's Tower 3, slated to rise about 1,050 feet and contain about 2 million square feet of office space.
    Mr. Rogers is also one of the designers of the Javits Convention Center expansion. His previous projects include the Millennium Dome in London and the Pompidou Center in Paris.

    The smallest tower, Tower 4, is designed by Mr. Maki, who won the Pritzker Prize in 1993. He is also designing a 35-story tower that will serve as a temporary home to the United Nations as its current residence is renovated.

    For construction to proceed on the three buildings, the Port Authority, which owns the site and leases it to Mr. Silverstein, must complete the construction of an underground wall known as the "east bathtub," expected in mid-2008. Towers 3 and 4 are scheduled to be finished by 2011, and Tower 2 by 2012.

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