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Thread: WTC Transit Hub - by Santiago Calatrava

  1. #2941

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    Well, hopefully this problem is fixed in the new station.

  2. #2942
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    Quote Originally Posted by stache View Post
    Really. They installed the big video monitors and they could flash 'Next train to XYZ leaving on platform A/B/C' in however many minutes, between commercials. Their heads are really up their backsides.
    this...

  3. #2943
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid View Post
    I don't see why they can't have one line on one side of a platform and the other line on the other side.




    My question is why can't they have both lines leave WTC from the same platform so if one is going to Exchange Place they can just stand on the platform and step on the next train instead of deciding which platform to descend to first, and possibly choosing the wrong one (the one that is not leaving next). Or at least have some "Next train leaving in" signs in the mezannine of WTC so you can know which stairs you should walk down.[/COLOR]
    Island Platforms are not good for stations that will see more then 25,000 , overcrowding becomes a huge issue and also safety. Hench why alot of Newer Metros prefer side Platforms which don't run into this issue. Could you imagine how bad Harrison would be if it were a Island station....


    Navy Yard station overwhelmed by randomduck, on Flickr

  4. #2944

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
    Island Platforms are not good for stations that will see more then 25,000 , overcrowding becomes a huge issue and also safety. Hench why alot of Newer Metros prefer side Platforms
    With the sole exception of the two island platforms at the 125 Street station, every station on the 2 Ave line will be a single island platform. Also note that the projected ridership for the four stations of Phase 1 are projected to generate 202,000 weekday trips (SAS FEIS), averaging 50,000 trips (or 25,000 station entries) per station. Similarly, if you look around the world, island platforms grace many of the busiest locations of newer rapid-transit lines, e.g. in Beijing, Moscow, or Seoul.

    Normal crowding issues are a result not of shared space, but of passenger levels exceeding design standards. If you plan on large passenger throughput, you design your stations with very wide island platforms and sufficient access points.

  5. #2945

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    the E/M station at 53rd and lex is a great example of an overcrowded island station with bottleneck access points

  6. #2946

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
    Island Platforms are not good for stations that will see more then 25,000 , overcrowding becomes a huge issue and also safety. Hench why alot of Newer Metros prefer side Platforms which don't run into this issue. Could you imagine how bad Harrison would be if it were a Island station....


    Navy Yard station overwhelmed by randomduck, on Flickr

    All you have to do is make the island platform twice as wide as you would have made each of the side platforms. That way the total capacity is the same.

  7. #2947

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    That's not how an overcrowded station works. If the platform is wider, it only means that more people will stand on it, thereby not eliminating the problem. And technically "widening" a platform is not always feasible, considering it would require more excavation work, especially if you're working with a confined working space, such as the World Trade Center.

    All of the above are valid points, except that the SAS stations are through stations, where trains aren't meant to linger for times longer than five minutes. The same goes for 125th Street. The WTC PATH station is a terminal loop, which means that trains have time to change operators, unload and reload passengers, and store trains, which they do on weekends. If two trains with separate destinations stopped at one island platform, especially in a terminal, instead of being distinguished on their own platforms then I'm pretty sure that people aren't going to want to wait for the next train, and they're going to get on any train that takes them away from that overcrowded platform. I do this most of the time.

    Coney Island - Stillwell Avenue on the D, F, N, and Q shares a same configuration. One line has their own platform, mainly because these are major lines and the station wasn't built for the moment.

  8. #2948

  9. #2949

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    Quote Originally Posted by BStyles View Post
    That's not how an overcrowded station works. If the platform is wider, it only means that more people will stand on it
    Ummm.....yeah. More people will be able to stand on it. That's what I'm saying. Having two 10' wide side platforms is no better than one 20' wide middle platform.

    Anyways, I never brought up island platforms in the first place. What I said is that both lines should leave from the same platform so one travelling to Exchange Place can just catch the next train, no matter which line. If they leave from the exact same track, all the better. The platform type doesn't matter.



    If two trains with separate destinations stopped at one island platform, especially in a terminal, instead of being distinguished on their own platforms then I'm pretty sure that people aren't going to want to wait for the next train, and they're going to get on any train that takes them away from that overcrowded platform. I do this most of the time.
    Yes, they're going to get on the first train that gets them off the overcrowded platform. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT. People will get on the first train to leave instead of waiting for the "next train". That's why signage is needed say which train will leave next that people can see BEFORE they descend the stairs. EITHER that OR have them leave from the same platform. Either will work. But to have people play a guessing game as to which stairs they should descend is idiotic.


    Coney Island - Stillwell Avenue on the D, F, N, and Q shares a same configuration. One line has their own platform, mainly because these are major lines and the station wasn't built for the moment.
    That's fine as long as you know which train will leave first BEFORE you decide which staircase to descent. The problem is even worse with PATH, as midday frequency is terrible (15 minutes on the Newark line, 12 minutes on the Hoboken line). It shouldn't be a guessing game as to which train leaves next. The current setup is TERRIBLE.

  10. #2950

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    The current setup is TEMPORARY. It has been since the beginning. The current setup probably allows for guidance from the workers and officers in the station, but it's not permanent. Given the renders and the current setup of the new station I'm sure that PATH will implement what passengers need to find their trains. They have in some parts of their other stations. But having one platform for two trains with different arrival and departure times doesn't make up for headway time, and widening the platform does not make up for platform congestion.

  11. #2951

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid View Post
    If they leave from the exact same track, all the better. The platform type doesn't matter.

    That's why signage is needed say which train will leave next that people can see BEFORE they descend the stairs. EITHER that OR have them leave from the same platform. Either will work. But to have people play a guessing game as to which stairs they should descend is idiotic.
    The only part of your argument that makes sense is to have signage at the mezzanine level to direct passengers to the next train.

    You can't have trains leave from the same track. The two lines don't alternate, and the WTC station wait-time is greater than the time between trains in the tunnel.

    Schedule for trains leaving WTC:

    Hoboken
    759
    806
    812
    818
    818
    824
    830

    Newark
    800
    804
    808
    812
    816
    820
    824
    828

    The Hoboken trains remain in the station for 6 minutes, the Newark trains for four minutes. Some of the trains in the tunnel are only two minutes apart.

    As already explained, the WTC is a terminal. There's a complete turnover of passengers, unlike at a through-station. It's not efficient to put them on the same platform, and on the same stairs.

  12. #2952

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    Quote Originally Posted by BStyles View Post
    The current setup is TEMPORARY. It has been since the beginning. The current setup probably allows for guidance from the workers and officers in the station, but it's not permanent. Given the renders and the current setup of the new station I'm sure that PATH will implement what passengers need to find their trains. They have in some parts of their other stations. But having one platform for two trains with different arrival and departure times doesn't make up for headway time, and widening the platform does not make up for platform congestion.
    I never said anything about widening platforms.

  13. #2953

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    First pour early this morning on current top level in the north-east corner of the hub!

  14. #2954

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    Tower 3 concrete casting forms are being removed piece by piece. Looks like it will be capped! With no high adjacent buildings, the Calatrava structure will be more of a show case.

  15. #2955
    Fearless Photog RoldanTTLB's Avatar
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    Yeah, but the interesting, asymmetric aspect of it won't make very much sense...

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