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Thread: WTC Transit Hub - by Santiago Calatrava

  1. #3556

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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    I'm somewhat surprised that you in particular would be making such a false argument. Additional floors are directly monetizable and especially the higher ones will command a greater lease price per square foot, more so as the trauma of 9.11 continues to fade. The net cost of building more floors on 1 WTC is thus less than zero. On the other hand, allowing preventable cost overruns on the scale of 2 Billion dollars for the PATH station is both foolish and a violation of the fiduciary responsibilities to the taxpayers and toll payers of Port Authority facilities
    Actually the retail space being constructed at the Hub command much greater lease price per square foot than any office space would. Especially in the building like 1WTC where the top floors barely have any leasable space due to the size of the core and the shape of the building.

    Both projects will end up costing approximately $4 billion. 10% of 1WTC was sold to Durst for $100 million (valuing it at $1 billion tops), whereas Westfield bought retail development rights for the WTC (vast majority of the space being in the Hub) for $1.4 billion. Thus the Hub is actually providing a higher return than the 1WTC. And considering the additional value transportation-wise that the Hub provides, it's clear which project is actually the more wasteful one.
    Last edited by Proballxx; December 4th, 2014 at 10:54 AM.

  2. #3557
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    Is wasting 2 billion dollars creating more retail space? And to your point regarding the upper floor space, if the design called for a higher top floor then the angle of the corner tapers would have been eased allowing for more floor space up there. But even with less space, the value of that space more or less pays for itself.


    And I don't think anyone here is arguing that money was well spent on 1 WTC. The whole project was colossally inefficient and mired in special interests and politics. The only reason costs on 1 WTC was brought up is because zippy was arguing that my calling for a higher floor was a contradiction in wanting a tighter budget on the PATH station
    Last edited by GordonGecko; December 4th, 2014 at 11:09 AM.

  3. #3558

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    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    I'm somewhat surprised that you in particular would be making such a false argument. Additional floors are directly monetizable and especially the higher ones will command a greater lease price per square foot,
    Actually that is true of residential buildings, especially very expensive ones, for two reasons. One is that much higher prices can be charged for upper floors, whereas commercial leasing is more a bottom-line affair. The other is the nature of the buildings. Office buildings have more people, and those people move around more. The utility needs are much greater. So more elevators and service shafts. The utility space you would add for the top 400 feet would subtract space from every floor below. Diminishing returns; developers know about it.

    so as the trauma of 9.11 continues to fade.
    I doubt if 09/11 has much, if anything, to do with it. Downtown will never be able to compete with Midtown unless the rent is lower.

    The net cost of building more floors on 1 WTC is thus less than zero.
    I doubt you have any figures to support this, so I won't ask.

    On the other hand, allowing preventable cost overruns on the scale of 2 Billion dollars for the PATH station is both foolish and a violation of the fiduciary responsibilities to the taxpayers and toll payers of Port Authority facilities
    It's more than a train station. It will have retail. It ties all the other buildings together, and makes the area more attractive to prospective tenants.

    It's meaningless to quote PATH ridership numbers until the hub is open. It has 3 subway lines directly connected to it, and several others close by. It will attract people as a destination, not just a way to get to New Jersey. Lets wait until it opens and see how popular it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    And I don't think anyone here is arguing that money was well spent on 1 WTC. The whole project was colossally inefficient and mired in special interests and politics. The only reason costs on 1 WTC was brought up is because zippy was arguing that my calling for a higher floor was a contradiction in wanting a tighter budget on the PATH station
    And it's not a contradiction?

    I said humans are wasteful, and some of the things we like aren't efficient. 1WTC was an inefficient build, (you said: "The whole project was colossally inefficient"), and you wanted to add more to it. I said that's OK, but it's no different than someone wanting to see the inefficient transit hub built.

  4. #3559

  5. #3560

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    Will they be painting this with that same chunky textured paint they used for the underpass ribs?

  6. #3561

  7. #3562

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    Quote Originally Posted by scumonkey View Post
    Will they be painting this with that same chunky textured paint they used for the underpass ribs?
    No, it looks like regular white. The chunky white below ground is a fire resistant material which expands around the steel when exposed to high temperatures. Using the same material above ground would be irrelevant, if exposed to the elements.

    Is it just me, or are the last few rafters unevenly spaced? Is that part of the design?

  8. #3563
    Fearless Photog RoldanTTLB's Avatar
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    Optical illusion (the spacing). This is going to look pretty incredible when it's bright white. I think it will be a few shades even bright than this, as the earthcam view shows that it is primer getting it to this color in most spots and should be getting another coat.

  9. #3564

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    No it's not an illusion, and it's definitely not part of the design. The second and fifth rafters from the end are both out of line. I wonder if they can fix it, or it's going to forever look like an old bent comb.

  10. #3565
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    Actually that is true of residential buildings, especially very expensive ones, for two reasons. One is that much higher prices can be charged for upper floors, whereas commercial leasing is more a bottom-line affair. The other is the nature of the buildings. Office buildings have more people, and those people move around more. The utility needs are much greater. So more elevators and service shafts. The utility space you would add for the top 400 feet would subtract space from every floor below. Diminishing returns; developers know about it.

    I doubt if 09/11 has much, if anything, to do with it. Downtown will never be able to compete with Midtown unless the rent is lower.

    I doubt you have any figures to support this, so I won't ask.

    It's more than a train station. It will have retail. It ties all the other buildings together, and makes the area more attractive to prospective tenants.

    It's meaningless to quote PATH ridership numbers until the hub is open. It has 3 subway lines directly connected to it, and several others close by. It will attract people as a destination, not just a way to get to New Jersey. Lets wait until it opens and see how popular it is.

    And it's not a contradiction?

    I said humans are wasteful, and some of the things we like aren't efficient. 1WTC was an inefficient build, (you said: "The whole project was colossally inefficient"), and you wanted to add more to it. I said that's OK, but it's no different than someone wanting to see the inefficient transit hub built.
    Why do you feel the need to argue every little point? I'm not even arguing that a bold & impressive design shouldn't have been funded, I'm simply arguing that it's not acceptable to let costs balloon to nearly $4 billion dollars when preventable cost overruns could have cut that by at least $1 Billion (see above article about suspending 1 service, rejecting cost cutting measures, etc...). The notion that "hey at least it looks nice" doesn't absolve the authorities from their accountability and failure of fiduciary obligations. Heads should be rolling over this, but instead we'll just have a nice little ribbon cutting ceremony (probably a decade from now at this pace).

    And regarding 1 WTC, you are incorrect in your assumption. This is not your typical downtown office building where lease rates are about $50/sqft, this is arguably the most notorious building in the world today and that name brand recognition commands a premium. Mid floors at 1 WTC are selling at around $75 to $69/sqft (http://www.worldpropertyjournal.com/...tower-8626.php), but the upper floors are still priced at $75-$100/sqft and are selling (http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2014/0...o_servcorp.php). The higher floors are absolutely more valuable

  11. #3566

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    You sort of started the whole thing will this useless remark:

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    Well that's just swell, why not build a 4 Billion dollar solid platinum bathroom in Times Square and just say "well we got a nice rest stop out of it"
    So please cut out the bullshit.

    The rest of your post is a rehash of your preference for a way over budget 1WTC over way over budget transit hub. I even said it was OK that you preferred the former, just that it's contradictory to complain about one but want more funding for the other. You're the one that's all twisted in a knot over this.

    "hey at least it looks nice"
    That's your characterization; that's not the only reason that I like it.

  12. #3567
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    No bullshit, I simply don't agree with accepting the costs because being a great structure somehow absolves the planners of their responsibilities. It's not complicated, and definitely not worth all this wasted bandwidth

  13. #3568

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    If it's so simple, why are you going to such lengths to try to say that money from the right pocket isn't the same as money from the left pocket.

    As for bandwidth, no one is twisting your arm.

  14. #3569
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    Yeesh.

  15. #3570
    Forum Veteran Tectonic's Avatar
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    12.13.14 Second crane coming down


    tectonic

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