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Thread: WTC Transit Hub - by Santiago Calatrava

  1. #3781
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    yay.

    A mall.

    Coming from NJ, the ONE THING that I am not looking for, or short of, is a large enclosure filled with name brand stores that try to get my cash with items I probably really do not need.

    Combine that with the crash of mall traffic with rush hour commuters forced to jog up and down several half-stairs to get to where they are going. The Vesey (sp) street exit is prime example. Coming out of the Path Train, you get squished up a few narrow escalators or stairways, to have to come out and deal with the crush of people that are brought together at the center of the exits due to the escalators orientation.

    Next, up that BIG WIDE curved stair at an angle to the Oculus where people seem to have no idea of where to walk as they meander around it at their own paces.

    Then halfway across the mall, which at times has events in its center for X Y or Z. Swing left to ANOTHER stair/escalator where most of the people forget NYC's unwritten rule: Walk Up The Left Side.

    Then ANOTHER stair that constricts at its center right at a major column support.

    Then, wait for it.... ANOTHER stair/Escalator before coming out to several small swing doors that people clash at entering and exiting.

    Yeesh!

    This is all on top of an attractive, but excessively expensive construction that takes SO MUCH CARE to keep clean (I am seeing these poor guys on their knees cleaning up spills and such on the white marble floors).

    What's done is done, but you would have thought we could have had a bit more sense and found some way to make a practical item attractive and avoid having to put a mall in it to afford it.

  2. #3782

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigMac View Post
    "...there is little to suggest that Westfield World Trade Center occupies consecrated ground...It is now clear that the Oculus is — and was always intended to be — a shopping mall with an ancillary transportation purpose."
    Thank heavens for that!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
    avoid having to put a mall in it to afford it.
    I'm a bit confused. Where else would The Mall at the World Trade Center go? The history books?
    Last edited by Enigmatism415; October 7th, 2016 at 02:30 PM.

  3. #3783

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    Since only half of the exits and entrances for the mall are complete, I wouldn't be too quick to judge. Combine that with the fact that if they keep Ingels' design, Tower 2 is going to be a navigational nightmare.

    Five major exits are still sealed off: Tower 3, Tower 2, the 1 Cortlandt Street (Station, street exit and platform level), the R Cortlandt Street (Platform level) and the VSC tour bus pick-up/drop-off. Not to mention a potential Performing Arts Center exit.

  4. #3784

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    Tower 2's exit seems to be operating just fine, unless there is a second one planned.

    Quote Originally Posted by BStyles View Post
    a potential Performing Arts Center exit.
    They managed to mess that one up. The final design doesn't show any such connection.

  5. #3785

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    The VSC's northern exit spirals up from the basement of the PAC, which is why it sits on a pedestal some twenty feet off of the ground. That doesn't necessarily place the idea on the backburner.

  6. #3786

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    Quote Originally Posted by BStyles View Post
    The VSC's northern exit spirals up from the basement of the PAC, which is why it sits on a pedestal some twenty feet off of the ground. That doesn't necessarily place the idea on the backburner.
    A mall connection would have to rise through that giant pedestal, which you'd think would be apparent in the render:


  7. #3787
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Enigma,

    The least important item in the rebuilding of the WTC was the shopping space. The previous WTC was not known as having a giant, artistic Garden State Plaza mall.

    Walking through it, seeing the lines of people waiting to get into the Apple Store in the morning to look at the new mePhone, and the general trend of the stores apparent when you walk on the main concourse, you get the feeling of the article posted earlier. Opulent Mall first, Transit Center second.

    I am just disappointed it is THAT OBVIOUS, and that one of its prime functions is compromised because of it.

  8. #3788

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    Ninja,

    The previous WTC mall was one of the most successful in the nation, and the largest in Manhattan (Westfield had also planned an aggressive renovation/expansion shortly before 9/11). Although I personally believe that a subterranean connection to a future Fulton Center had been planned prior to 9/11 (after seeing blueprints), the former complex offered fewer subway access points while it stood. Westfield didn't even agree with the current design, saying that they had hoped to make the new mall much, much larger to truly take advantage of the potential retail space (and to replace the massive amount that was lost); what we have now is actually a scaled-down compromise mall. The point here, though, is that the mall was always intended to be a crucial component of the WTC, both before and after 9/11, even if the media had never given that aspect much attention.

    Regarding your concerns about crowding and navigation, they're mostly unfounded. The Oculus completely dwarfs the old 'Mall Crossroads' as a gathering and navigating space. Furthermore, the mouth of the new PATH hall has far more bandwidth than the original 'PATH Square', despite its epic escalator bank, and offers a second outlet artery as well. Once you're out of the PATH train and ascend to the level above, your options are plentiful. There is plenty of space to access the four main WTC towers directly from the mall, a corridor matching the width of the original North Bridge leading to the WFC and waterfront, and straightforward exits at both Church & Vesey and Church & Liberty if you're averse to struggling through the admittedly cumbersome arrangement of staircases leading out of the Oculus structure itself. The easiest path of all is the straight shot from the PATH hall accross the enormous Oculus floor to the Dey Street Concourse–itself a straight shot to the Fulton Center–which I would imagine is the most important and oft-used destination for cross-Hudson commuters. Considering the sheer size and number of these paths, you would need exceptional crowding to slow you down even a little bit.

  9. #3789
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Enigmata,

    Riding the train every day, I have experienced first hand the crowding. It does not matter how large the lobby if all your exits are small and funnel everyone into small lines and escalators telling everyone "not to walk" on them.

    BTW, your "plentiful options" are only present if you are one of the few working on the waterfront. Otherwise, most people go to the Vesey Street exit to get to the A train (it is right there) or up/cross town. It is MUCH more constricted than the 8 escalators that were available (before they started dismantling it and narrowing the access paths).

    BTW, the mall was large for Manhattan, but not large in general:
    http://www.labelscar.com/new-york/ma...d-trade-center

    The GSP, is, as I have said, enormous (but still dwarfed by some of the super-malls):
    http://www.outletsnewjersey.com/gard...-plaza-stores/

    And, as you mentioned, the WTC empties into ANOTHER mini-mall in the Fulton Center.

    Unfortunately, these items are focusing too much on what they can sell than what they can say.

    It is the most Beautiful Mall in America... with a memorial.

  10. #3790

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    Like I said, this isn't even all of the exits. Tower 2's entrance/exit is admittedly mediocre, but it is only temporary. The passage towards the A at Vesey Street will be supplemented once they finish restoring direct access to the E at Chambers Street- World Trade Center, on the Church Street side of the oculus behind the false wall.

    People who think it is poorly planned are quick to forget that this was part of a master plan that is only currently half finished. Even Westfield should agree that even though the mall only comprises half of the original's footprint, they now have another level, plus four levels of retail in the base of each Silverstein tower. My only complaint is how overwhelmed Eataly gets at rush hour.

  11. #3791

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    Quote Originally Posted by BStyles View Post
    The passage towards the A at Vesey Street will be supplemented once they finish restoring direct access to the E at Chambers Street- World Trade Center, on the Church Street side of the oculus behind the false wall.
    And unlike the original mall, there will be two connections to the Chambers Street – World Trade Center station: one on level C1M under 2WTC and one on level C1 in the northeast quadrant of the Oculus. Even though they are not yet open (though they will be by the end of the year), it's not too difficult to walk to Fulton Center for the (A) instead, and there's plenty of space to get there.

  12. #3792

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    From a practical perspective, .. the Port Authority's new hub fails its customers, the PATH-riding public.
    One platform is already completed, and its design flaws are obvious.
    Staircases are too narrow to accommodate the morning crowds who come streaming out of the trains from Hoboken, Jersey City, and beyond, while the narrow platforms quickly fill with irate commuters.
    Anyone trying to catch a train back to the Garden State risks a stampede.
    The marble, bright and sterile, picks up any spill, and a drop of water creates dangerously slippery conditions until a Port Authority janitor scurries out of some unseen door, mop in hand.
    Passenger flow and comfort, two of the most important elements of terminal design, seem to be an afterthought.
    The PATH Hub is shaping up to be an example of design divorced from purpose.

    http://www.citylab.com/design/2014/1...ctical/381139/

  13. #3793

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    That article was from two years ago.

  14. #3794

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    Can anyone name any ways in which the original WTC PATH station had superior functionality over the new one? I'm struggling to.

  15. #3795
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    Quote Originally Posted by BStyles View Post
    That article was from two years ago.
    lol! that about sums up the state of our message board here

    But the article does talk about an already completed platform at the time, is narrow platforms & staircases a problem at the finished station?

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