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Thread: Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 Crashes in Ukraine

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    Default Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 Crashes in Ukraine

    Report: Malaysia Airlines flight crashes in Ukraine

    By Ashley Fantz, CNN
    updated 11:55 AM EDT, Thu July 17, 2014

    Source: CNN


    (CNN) -- A Malaysia Airlines flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has crashed in eastern Ukraine, Russian news agency Interfax reported Thursday.

    Malaysia Airlines confirmed that it lost contact with MH17, and the flight's last known position was over Ukrainian airspace, the airline said on Twitter. The jet is a Boeing 777, according to Interfax.
    The plane reportedly went down near the border between Russia and Ukraine. The route taken by the Malaysian flight is a very common one between Kuala Lumpur and the Netherlands, said CNN aviation safety consultant Mary Schiavo. She noted that the plane was flying over a troubled area and said close communication with air traffic controllers would be a key necessity.

    In a hostile or disputed areas, "any alteration from your course and you can have a problem," she said. Tensions have been high between Ukraine and Russia since street protests forced former pro-Moscow President Viktor Yanukovych from power in February. Russia subsequently annexed Ukraine's southeastern Crimea region and a pro-Russia separatist rebellion has been raging in Ukraine's eastern Luhansk and Donetsk regions.

    Ukrainian forces have been struggling to quell the separatist unrest. Ukraine's government has accused Russia of allowing weapons and military equipment, including tanks, to cross the border illegally into the hands of pro-Russia separatists.

    The Pentagon said Wednesday that Russia now had 12,000 troops on the border with Ukraine, as well as some heavy weapons. The troop numbers had fallen to about 1,000 previously from a high of an estimated 40,000 forces earlier this year.

    On Thursday, CNN reported that as Ukrainian officials reportedly accused a Russian fighter of shooting down a Ukrainian jet Wednesday as that aircraft flew in Ukrainian airspace. Tensions are high over that incident, separate from the breaking news Thursday of the Malaysian flight.

    On top of that, Thursday's report of a downed Malaysian flight marks the second time this year that Malaysian Airlines has faced an incident involving a plane. On March 8, Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 disappeared. That plane had 239 people on board. Searchers have found no trace of 370 or its passengers despite extensive search efforts.
    Flight 370 likely flew into the southern Indian Ocean on autopilot with an unresponsive crew, Australian authorities said last month.

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    It appears there is every possibility that an innocent airliner has been blown out of the sky by the Russians or Ukrainians or pro-Russian Ukrainians or whoever. The fact it could even be a possibility leaves us utterly, utterly doomed as a species.
    Last edited by IrishInNYC; July 17th, 2014 at 12:29 PM.

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    Seems like someone is 'Russian' to conclusions".........HeHe

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    An audio tape of two phone conversations was released by the Ukrainian government purporting to prove that separatist rebels shot down the plane. Its authenticity hasn't been verified.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5597452.html

    An electronic trail of internet messages is pointing to Igor Girkin as a suspect.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europ...-of-MH17-video

  5. #5
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Putin, try as he may, won't be able to distance himself from the essential responsibility for this violation of international law ...

    The Malaysia Airlines Shootdown Spells Disaster for Putin

    What will European governments do in response? Time to step up ...

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    He doesn't care. He's untouchable. He could admit that he ordered the shootdown, and there's not a damn thing the world can do about it.

    When it comes down to it, much of Europe is dependent on Russian gas supplies. Are they going to let themselves freeze all winter to try to punish Putin? And any gas that he doesn't sell to Europe, the Chinese (who also could care less what the world thinks), will be happy to buy all he can sell them (they just signed such a deal.)

    BTW, does anyone think the cold war is not back on? I think it's time we realize it is, and start planning as such.
    Last edited by BBMW; July 18th, 2014 at 12:23 PM.

  7. #7

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    I think it's time we realize it is, and start planning as such.
    I can just see you on your way to the mall to buy another gun, just to be ready for such an eventualization?!

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    ^ Staying on topic...

    Doesn't this seem at least a little like the run up to WWII to you. A previously vanquished power rebuilding, rearming and becoming bellicose. Threatening, and actually invading it's neighbors.

    And look at what's happening elsewhere in the world. The Chinese (who are rapidly arming up) in an angry stare down with the Japanese and Philippines over territory. The Middle East at full roar, with the Israelis and Palestinian actively shooting at each other, and the civil war in Syria spilling over into Iraqi with an emergent anti-American group at the center of it. Oh, and what is in reality a drug money fueled civil war on our southern border.

    Yup, peace is breaking out all over. We can stick our heads in the ground and pretend it isn't happening. That the smart thing to do

  9. #9
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Our current calamities won't necessarily turn out with a planet-wide mess, such as happened in WWII, since the World is such a different place now. But mankind is still overseen by many stupid & greedy a*holes. The key is stay slow and cool. Hot heads like Putin will burn themselves out. The trick is not to get sucked into the chaos he and others are trying to create. Over reaction is rarely a good move.

    And Mercury coming out of retrograde, even the end-time shadow that we've just passed through, is almost always a trial and a bi-atch.

    Thankfully: Nothing lasts forever.

  10. #10
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    We are just the smartest chimps on the planet that got to throw the biggest stones.

    Until we evolve, we will continue to throw them until there are either not enough to hit with them, or no-one left to throw them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBMW View Post
    He doesn't care. He's untouchable. He could admit that he ordered the shootdown, and there's not a damn thing the world can do about it.

    When it comes down to it, much of Europe is dependent on Russian gas supplies. Are they going to let themselves freeze all winter to try to punish Putin? And any gas that he doesn't sell to Europe, the Chinese (who also could care less what the world thinks), will be happy to buy all he can sell them (they just signed such a deal.)

    BTW, does anyone think the cold war is not back on? I think it's time we realize it is, and start planning as such.
    No one can predict what war will start at what time, but the present situation is nothing like the Cold War, because Russia - internally and externally - is not the Soviet Union.

    Putin is moving toward a more autocratic government, but it is nowhere near the level of the USSR. His popularity rose when he annexed Crimea; now, if he abandons the rebels in Ukraine, the nationalism he sparked within Russia could turn on him.

    Internationally, there is no longer a struggle between ideologies - Capitalism vs Communism. There is no Warsaw Pact, no client states like Cuba. Even if Ukraine was independent at the time, the USSR would never have allowed them to sign an agreement with the EU.

    Ironically, Putin's problems exist because Russia is a capitalist country. It was estimated that $100 billion would exit Russia this year; that was before the latest sanctions, which were announced before the crash of MH17. Targeted industries could create political pressure on Putin from big players within Russia. The Kremlin requested a call to the White House, and Putin was speaking to Obama as news of the crash became known.

    Untouchable world leaders don't ask to speak to the US president about sanctions.

  12. #12
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    Aside: All politicians should be banned from making any comments about this. Hackneyed propaganda so far (again).


    MH17 tragedy: Chaos at crash scene amid reports of looting

    by Lucy Cormack, Deborah Gough

    Reports of looting are now emerging from the crash site of MH17 as bodies remain strewn across the area more than 24 hours after the disaster.
    Adviser to the Ukrainian Minister of Internal Affairs, Anton Gerashchenko has reported that "terrorists" have begun collecting valuables belonging to the victims of the tragedy.
    "Death-hunters collecting Were not Only Cash money and Jewelry of the crashed Boing passengers died but Also the credit cards of the Victims [sic]," he wrote on his Facebook page.


    Pro-Russian separatists look at passengers' belongings at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17. Photo: Reuters

    The reports come alongside those of a chaotic investigation being conducted among the wheat fields at the crash site.

    Michael Bociurkiw, spokesman for the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe’s special monitoring mission for Ukraine, told ABC News Radio that bodies at the crash site were already “starting to decompose in the fields”.

    ''It is astonishing to go there and this scene with no recovery going on,'' Mr Bociurkiw said.


    A pro-Russian separatist holds up a stuffed toy found at the crash site. Photo: Reuters

    He said there there appeared to be no tampering with bodies at the site except markers were being placed near to them or to body parts. He said debris seemed to still be in place. He said the crash site could be up to six kilometres wide.

    ''It is a very, very gruesome scene and it boggles the mind that this could go on, we are going into day two or three now,'' Mr Bociurkiw said.

    He said it was disturbing to find no credible leader in the separatist-held area to establish the facts at the site.


    There have been reports of looting and gunfire at the site of the wreckage. Photo: MAXIM ZMEYEV

    Questions remained about how many bodies were there and the location of the black box. Mr Bociurkiw's delegation needed to find out whether it was safe enough for international experts to begin their investigation into the disaster. He said many of the separatists appeared ''very aggressive'', under the influence of alcohol and possibly drugs.
    ''It is kind of the world's biggest crime scene right now,'' Mr Bociurkiw said.

    He said his team had been in touch with Malaysian senior officials whose prime concern was that the bodies were treated in a human way.

    ''One immediate requirement would be refrigerated trailers - anything where these bodies could be moved - so they don't continue to lie there, exposed to the elements,'' Mr Bociurkiw said.

    He said, 25 workers from the OSCE had access to the crash site for just 75 minutes before they were forced to leave. He said a gun shot was fired into the air as they left.

    OSCE council chairman, Thomas Greminger told Reuters that workers assessing the scene "did not have the kind of access that they expected. They did not have the freedom of movement that they need to do their job. The crash site is not sealed off".

    Denjen Doroschenko, an Australian journalist working in Ukraine told Fairfax Media in a radio interview that separatist organisations on the ground were "clueless about how to control a disaster area at all".

    Dr Geoff Dell, an air crash investigation expert from Central Queensland University, said in any crash investigation it is critical that all on site know what they are doing.

    "The longer it stays unexamined the more likely it gets contaminated, especially when there is people that aren’t really familiar with accident scenes, stomping all over it," he said.

    "The longer that goes on the more likely something you’re looking for is either destroyed, or stolen."

    He referred to Lauda Air Flight 004 which crashed in Thailand in 1991, in which a critical component was never found due to looting.

    "Overnight a large percentage of the wreckage was pilfered. Pieces of the airplane that you couldn’t for the life of you think someone would want to steal, were taken," he said.

    Dr Dell said it was crucial that proper protocols were followed, such as protecting the perimeter to keep people out and setting up a grid.

    "You draw up a grid so you can set up the relationship with the wreckage and identify exactly where each critical piece of evidence came from," he said.

    Armed guards are reportedly guarding the crash site near Torez, in a remote eastern area of Ukraine, where it is said the typical investigation grid is absent.

    Dr Dell said bodies that are still at the scene pose a different risk, as the risk of infection and disease to investigators on the crash scene increases.

    "It's inevitable some contamination will take place during the rescue of removal of the bodies," he said.

    "In other parts of the world there is less awareness of that, and I wouldn't be surprised given what we’ve seen, if the crash site hasn't already been substantially altered by the actions of the people in the first response."

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/mh17-tra...719-zuqib.html

  13. #13
    NYC Aficionado from Oz Merry's Avatar
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    Flight MH17 took abandoned flight path

    The Malaysian airliner apparently shot down over rebel-held eastern Ukraine was flying over airspace that a number of other Asian carriers and Australia's Qantas abandoned months ago because of security concerns.

    South Korea's two main airlines, Korean Air and Asiana, as well as Qantas and Taiwan's China Airlines said they had all re-routed flights from as early as the beginning of March when Russian troops moved into Crimea.

    'We stopped flying over Ukraine because of safety concerns,' Asiana spokeswoman Lee Hyo-min said.

    Korean Air re-routed its flights 250 kilometres south of Ukraine from March 3 'due to the political unrest in the region', an official for the carrier told AFP.

    A Qantas spokeswoman said its London to Dubai service used to fly over Ukraine, but the route was changed 'several months ago', while Taiwan's China Airlines diverted its flights from April 3.

    Quizzed as to why Malaysia Airlines had not taken similar precautions, Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak said international air authorities had deemed the flight path secure.

    'The aircraft's flight route was declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organization. And (the) International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions,' he said.

    Re-routing would have involved a longer flight-time and therefore higher fuel costs.

    Singapore Airlines said in a statement that it had been using Ukrainian airspace, but had 're-routed all our flights' to alternative corridors away from the region.

    It was not immediately clear when the route change was put into affect.

    Hong Kong's Cathay Pacific said it had not been using Ukrainian airspace 'for quite some time'.

    According to the European flight safety body Eurocontrol, the Ukrainian authorities declared the east of the country a no-fly zone shortly after the Malaysian airliner went down with 298 people on board.

    European and US airlines rerouted their flights as Kiev said flight MH17 was shot down in a 'terrorist' attack and a US official said intelligence analysts 'strongly believe' it was downed by a surface-to-air missile.

    'Since the crash, the Ukrainian authorities have informed Eurocontrol of the closure of routes from the ground to unlimited (altitude) in Eastern Ukraine,' Eurocontrol said in a statement.

    'All flight plans that are filed using these routes are now being rejected by Eurocontrol. The routes will remain closed until further notice,' it added.

    According to Eurocontrol's information, the doomed plane was flying at a level known as '330', or approximately 10,000 metres or 33,000 feet, when it disappeared from radar screens.

    The route itself had been closed to level '320', but was cleared for those flying at the Malaysian plane's altitude.

    Thai Airways said it had started re-routing flights away from Ukraine from Friday as a direct result of the crash.

    'Some of our flights used to pass through Ukrainian airspace ... but as of today all of our flights are totally avoiding Ukrainian airspace,' a Thai Airways spokeswoman said.

    Air China and China Eastern Airways had a total of 28 flights a week passing over eastern Ukraine, but China's Civil Aviation Administration said on Friday it had ordered all carriers to circumvent the region.

    Vietnam Airlines said it had suspended four long-haul flights to Europe in the immediate aftermath of the Malaysia Airlines incident

    The flights resumed on Friday, but on re-drawn routes that 'completely avoid' eastern Ukraine, the airline said.

    Other Asian carriers such as Indonesia's Garuda, Japan Airlines and All Nippon Airways said their routes had never crossed Ukraine.

    Meanwhile Malaysia Airlines says it has now changed the route its planes will take on flights to and from Europe.

    The airline said in a statement on its website that all of its European flights 'will be taking alternative routes avoiding the usual route'.

    'The usual flight route was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organisation' the statement reads.

    'International Air Transportation Association has stated that the airspace the aircraft was traversing was not subject to restrictions.'

    Even though there were no restrictions, Malaysia Airlines may still face questions about why it continued with flight paths over eastern Ukraine - at the heart of a violent rebellion against Kiev - when some airlines decided months ago to change routes to skip around the area.

    http://www.skynews.com.au/news/top-s....23LShJVM.dpuf

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    No one can predict what war will start at what time, but the present situation is nothing like the Cold War, because Russia - internally and externally - is not the Soviet Union.

    Putin is moving toward a more autocratic government, but it is nowhere near the level of the USSR. His popularity rose when he annexed Crimea; now, if he abandons the rebels in Ukraine, the nationalism he sparked within Russia could turn on him.

    Internationally, there is no longer a struggle between ideologies - Capitalism vs Communism. There is no Warsaw Pact, no client states like Cuba.
    It looks like Russia is intending to expand its military presence ...... as Putin once said: ‘The breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century.’

    Russia with plans for military bases in Nicaragua, Cuba and Venezuela

    Russia is planning to expand its permanent military presence outside its borders by placing military bases or seeking permission for navy ships to use ports in a number of foreign countries, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu said on Wednesday. The list includes Vietnam, Cuba, Venezuela, Nicaragua, the Seychelles, Singapore and several other countries
    http://en.mercopress.com/2014/02/27/...-and-venezuela

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    Paul Craig Roberts waas previously assistant secretary to the treasury in the Reagan Cabinet and one time editor of the Wall Street Journal, he
    knows his way round the Washington bubble and has an interesting take on events in UKR.

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07 ... g-roberts/


    Washington’s propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing the facts that we do have.

    One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.

    Another fact is that the separatists have no incentive to shoot down an airliner and neither does Russia. Anyone can tell the difference between low-flying attack aircraft and an airliner at 33,000 feet.

    The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.

    Just as the separatists and the Russian government have no incentive to shoot down an airliner, neither does the Ukrainian government nor, one would think, even the crazed extreme Ukrainian nationalists who have formed militias to take the fight against the separatists that the Ukrainian army is not keen to undertake–unless there was a plan to frame Russia.

    Anyone else getting the feeling the official narrative here does not seem to fit the facts? The media is being manipulated.

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