Jersey City Rising

[dbhstockton]

Thank you Jeffrey! *Well said.

Billy, maybe reading this thread closely will help you understand why us Jersey folks are touchy about this subject ("Jersey lover" is pushing it a bit. *I just live here and think New Yorkers owe more respect to the Garden State). *We don't like to be seen as only detracting from your glorious city, and we see your attitude as bigotted. * It's not all quiet bedroom commuties out here. *We contribute to the regional economy as well. *Where would NYC be without NJ's modern port facilities, refineries, manufacturing, transortation network, etc? * *Moreover, suburbs are suburbs. *If you want to avoid offending us, don't say anything about New Jersey that you wouldn't also say about Westchester, Nassau, or Suffolk counties.

[amigo32]

Interesting rivalries, but they are not unique to NY. *KC has similar competitiveness between the two halves of its metro. *The wealthy side (Kansas) has "leeched" jobs and business from the poorer side (Missouri) for decades which irritates some on the MO. side, (prosperity envy) while The MO. side has more national notoriety, which irritates some on the KS. side. Also, they have been trying to pass a bi-state tax for a few years now to upgrade the stadiums, (which are on the MO. side), and the Kansas half always votes it down. *The most oft given reason for voting no is that they don't want to pay taxes for Missouri property.
Sounds like squabbling children, dosen't it?

[billyblancoNYC]

Intersting about the KC situation. *

As far as NY/NJ it's a matter of hometown pride, really. *Everyone, I think, knows NY is a metro area for various reasons. *But, there's nothing wrong with loving your hometown and wanting everything in it/for it. *You know what I mean?

Any rivalry steeped in reality and understanding can't be bad - both sides would step up.

As far as Nj being the same as Westchester and LI, this might be true, but NJ is another state with more of a "winner take all" mentality (ie. take breaks, etc), so there is more of a competition between NJ and NY that NYC and NY suburbs.

[amigo32]

Well, I wasn't trying to "intrude" on NY. *I saw striking similarities in how the communities interact with each other, and I thought that it was worth mentioning as a comparison point. *All metro areas have their "hometown pride", this is why they fight with each other. *I guess I was trying to make the point that all of this inter-metro bickering is really pretty silly, when you look at it. *Generally, whatever benefits one part of a metro area will eventually translate to the rest of the metro area over time. *As long as the area is interconnected it is part of a *"whole"! *Fragmenting that whole is just plain stupid. *"United we stand, divided we fall". *I guess that I just don't understand your exclusionary attitude towards JC. *Please! Correct me if I am misinterpreting your posistion.

(Edited by amigo32 at 4:36 am on Jan. 11, 2003)

[yanni111]

i like the development in JC, its nice to look across the river and see basically another entire skyline there, it makes the whole region more impressive by having even more skyscrapers outside of manhattan. The Goldman Sachs building was really shining and pretty in the sunlight a couple days ago when i saw JC from West st. Does JC development take away from NYC? yes it takes away possible projects but even with stuff going up there in the last few years look at all the new projects going of in NYC, there have been tons of new projects in manhattan and theres many rising now theres more than enough to pass around

[Agglomeration]

Hey don't forget competition from Stamford CT. They have plenty of big corporate buildings going up. The only restraint is a height limit of 360 feet or so. Like Jersey City though, it doesn't have much else in the form of amenities.

[JCDJ]

"I love Jersey City, but it will take a long time before it ever reaches the "skyline map"
- Jude 1017

Jersey City's first major modern office buildings began to rise in the 70's and late 80's. In a best skyline (in the world) poll in 2000[http://www.library.tudelft.nl/~egram/skylines_old.htm] , we (Jersey City) were ranked # 80 something. 2 years later in 2002 [http://www.library.tudelft.nl/~egram/skylines.htm] , we rose to #69. We rose almost 20 ranks in 2 years, and we've only had a skyline since the 70's.

(In case your wondering YES, New York City was #1 by large number of votes.)

Also, 3 of our buildings were nominated for the skyscraper.com award. (Plaza 5 Harborside, and Liverty View Towers East and West)

(Edited by JCDJ at 10:08 pm on Jan. 23, 2003)


(Edited by JCDJ at 12:44 am on Jan. 24, 2003)

[JCDJ]

The difference between CT and New Jersey though, is that New Jersey is much closer, so relocation isn't as much of a hassle.

As for LEECHING issues, I have quite a few things to say about that.

For one thing, I don't find anything wrong with the competition between NY and NJ, (including, but not limited to, architecture, construction, revenue, home pride arguements) healthy competition means healthy growth.

It is impossible to say with any logic that New Jersey is leeching off of New York. For one thing, Jersey City only tries to lour buisinesses planning on relocating.

- Where does new york get it's industrial supplies?
- Where do a significant percentage of NY workers come from?
- What STATE connects New York to the rest of the continent?
- And finally the part that any New Jersey native with any type of Jersey pride hates, where does New York send all of its garbage? (Hopefully after the TV Tower, this garbage agreement can be cancelled due to heightened revenue)

So if you think that New York got where it is by itself, remember all of the ways New Jersey has helped it. And now, we're helping New Yorkers be able to work and/or live in a place where they're not overburdened by excessive taxes. If anything, these new buildings we have are well-deserved after all that we've done for New York

and if you refuse to accept that, think about this, what land mass do you think Manhattan and Long Island drifted from soon after the Pangea days? New York? I think not.

[dbhstockton]

I'm with you, but you crossed the line with the geological reference there. *Manhattan sort came up from underground, rather than drifting into place -- I believe it's made of igneous rock. *And Long Island is only, what, 10,00 years old. *It's glacial till deposited after the last ice age. *

Sorry, had to be done. *Anyone else with Geology 101 under their belt feel free to correct me.

[JCDJ]

Either way, by common sense, New York City dare I say it, SHOULD technically be considered part of NJ due to it's lack of proximity from New York State in comparison.

[JCDJ]

An excerpt from

"New York vs. New Jersey:
A New Perspective"

http://www.mitchellmoss.com/articles/nynj.html

"Still, probably no regional issue has received more attention than the often-repeated charge that New Jersey is stealing jobs from New York City. This charge has little basis in reality. When New York City lost more than half a million jobs from 1969 to 1977, most of these jobs, which included manufacturing as well as headquarters jobs, did not flow to New Jersey. The apparel industry went to the non-union South or to low-wage nations in Asia, and New York City's large commercial banks built data processing and clerical facilities on Long Island. Of the corporate headquarters that left Manhattan between 1974 and 1987, eleven went to New Jersey but twenty-one moved to Connecticut.(3) Ironically, when New York City's problems were at their worst, no one blamed Connecticut, Long Island, or the Third World as the source of the city's problems.

In the post-fiscal crisis period, approximately 400,000 new jobs were created in New York City, fueled largely by business and consumer services. During this economic resurgence, New Jersey also prospered. However, New Jersey's economic boom has not been at the expense of New York. A study by George Sternlieb and Alex Schwartz of Rutgers University revealed that 80 percent of the firms that had moved facilities into New Jersey's "growth corridors" had relocated from elsewhere in the state. (4) Of course, these are statewide figures and for the nearby Meadowlands, located just six miles from Manhattan, one-third of the firms surveyed had emigrated from New York. This, however, does not diminish the importance of recognizing that New Jersey's economic success has largely been due to the growth of indigenous firms.

The author would like to thank Sarah Ludwig, Dick, Netzer asnd Emanuel Tobier for their helpful comments. This paper was made possible in part by finds granted by the Charles H. Reverson Foundation. The Statements make and views expressed, however, are solely those of the author.

1. Erwin Wilkie Bard, Port of New York Authority. New York: Columbia University Press, London: P.S. King & Staples, Ltd. 1942, p.16.

2. Cited in Bard, p.23.

3. Regina R. Armstrong and David Miller, "Employment in the Manhattan CBD and Back-Office Locational Decisions," City Almanac, Vol. 18, No. 1-2, June/August, 1984: The Economist. May 9, 1987.

4. George Sternlieb and Alex Schwartz, New Jersey Growth Corridors, Center for Urban Policy Research, Rutgers University, 1986.

5. Kate Ascher. "Down to the Sea Again: The Resurgence of the Trans-Hudson Ferry," Portfolio. Spring, 1988, Vol. 1., No. 1.



Originally published in Portfolio, Summer 1988
Volume 1, Number 2
The Port Authority of NY and NJ. 1988


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(C) 1999 Mitchell Moss"

http://www.mitchellmoss.com/articles/nynj.html

(Edited by JCDJ at 1:35 am on Jan. 24, 2003)


(Edited by JCDJ at 1:36 am on Jan. 24, 2003)

[Kris]

Quote: from JCDJ on 11:51 pm on Jan. 23, 2003
Either way, by common sense, New York City dare I say it, SHOULD technically be considered part of NJ due to it's lack of proximity from New York State in comparison.

What nonsense. If anything, northern NJ is a mainland appendix of NYC. Now quit deluding yourself.

[Kris]

Westchester and LI are not farther than NJ.

[ZippyTheChimp]

dbhstockton is right. You were doing ok until the geological references. There is evidence that the ancient Hudson ran in a channel west of the Palisades, then turned eastward at Raritan Bay. That would put JC, Bayonne, Hoboken, etc on "our side" of the river.

Dammit, we want our land back.

[dbhstockton]

In fact, the Meadowlands was a sea until relatively recently on a geologic time scale. *All the more reason for that ridge of JC, Weehawken, etc. to be part of New York. *It would have been part of the archepelago that included Manhattan and Staten Islands.

Oh, and let's not forgot the Dutch colony of New Netherland, which included parts of northern New Jersey before the British took over and set up the proprietary colonies of East and West Jersey. *Maybe they should have kept the old boundares. . .