The Middle East Map for Palestine

[LF22]

Personally, I think the intifada will continue for many years to come. Israel wants complete peace before negotiations on Palestine independance. Palestine wants negotiations in parallel to a disarmament of terrorist groups. Welcome to the great paradox.

(Edited by LF22 at 2:56 pm on Aug. 25, 2003)

[NyC MaNiAc]

Not to be biased, but I don't know how Israel can discuss peace when people are still detonating themselves to kill innocent citizens-these people are giving their life to kill others.

I can't even say truthfully that I would give myself to SAVE another person...

There's so much hate...

[Freedom Tower]

LF22, just so you know, Israel was giving back some cities to the palestinians and releasing some palestinian terrorists(which should never be done anyway). While they were doing this the Palestinians did nothing in return except blow up a bus a few weeks later. How can you criticize Israel for wanting a caese of attacks before negotiations? I'm surprised Israel wants to negotiate at all. Every day innocent Israelis are blown up by terrorists. Then the palestinians complain that they are being occupied. They should realize that the Israeli army is in their cities to protect Israel, and unless they don't stop blowing up Israelis the IDF will have to continue to hunt terrorists.

[LF22]

I can't help but detect a slight bit of anti-palestinian pro-israeli sentiments here but thats not what I'm here to debate. To anwser freedomtower's question, "How can you criticize Israel for wanting a caese of attacks before negotiations?" negotiations are the only way to cease the attacks at all. When Israel and Palestine were negotiating on Palestine Independance from the Oslo Accords in 1992 (or 1993 I don't remember) to 1998 less than 100 Israeli's died in terrorist attacks by palestinians. Every since the breakoff's in negotaiations in 1998 over 2000 both israelis and palestinians have died in the resulting intifada. *Also it's not just Israeli civilians that are being killed. A good deal of innocent palestinians have also been killed from coolateral damage when Israeli heliecoper have targeted the palestinian leadership. These rounds of innocent killings continue to enflame the hatred between Israelis and palestinians. The PLO needs to round up it's terrorists factions at all costs and the Israeli government needs to stop continue expanding it's settlements and withdraw back to pre1967 borders. I'm beginning to think neither Sharon or Arafat want peace after all.

[ZippyTheChimp]

As a result of the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Israel occupied the entire Sinai penninsula, a considerable landmass. In 1979, when Eqypt and Israel signed a peace treaty and normalized relations, Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt. To enforce the agreement, the Israeli military forcibly removed Jewish settlers from the area.

At a time when their security as a nation was much more threatened than today, the government demonstrated that it would exchange land for peace.

I can't say what the consensus of opinion among its people would be, but I'm pretty sure that an agreement of this sort with the Palestinians would be upheld by Israel.

Sadly, there is no person or group that can make that guarantee on the behalf of the Palestinians.

[NyC MaNiAc]

Palestinians need to stop blowing themselves up, and Israel needs to...I guess, stop defending themselves?

Whatever the case, this juvenille war needs to end, now. I want to go to Israel, yet, I don't feel entirely safe.

[TLOZ Link5]

Suicide bombing is wrong, but when Israel was first founded many Palestinian families were evicted from properties they had owned for generations, which were subsequently taken over by Jewish immigrants. *This must have left a simmering, deep-seated hatred through subsequent generations who live in large refugee camps, crumbling projects in Gaza, and stagnating West Bank cities. *And then religious leaders, who might not even believe in God but use Islam to manipulate the disgruntled Palestinians, spearhead the jihad movement and give the Palestinians something to aspire to: Paradise. *It happened during the Crusades with the Assassins; it's happening again today.

In all honesty, IMHO this drive-the-Jews-to-the-sea rhetoric will lose its momentum if Israel can guarantee a respectable quality of life for the Palestinians on the road to independence. *Everyone wants to live comfortably, even affluently, and many of these suicide bombers came from poor families. *It's the same thing with black militants in South Africa and Native Americans here. *I'm the last one to point fingers; I have friends who live in Israel and I fear for them daily. *But why can't everyone be sane and reasonable like we are on this forum?

Feel free to correct me if you want; I'm just being level with y'all.

[Jasonik]

Lack of Palestinian leadership is to blame. *These poor people are stewing with hatred and there is no one they can look to for help except the militants.

Israel drives a hard bargain, yes, but all the more reason for competent sophisticated Palestinian leadership.

Perhaps the Arab world likes a confused and fragmented Palestinian gov't so they can point to Israel as the cause of the problem.
Wouldn't it be nicer for the Arab world to be able to point to a leader who gave credibility to the Palestinian cause?

[Jasonik]

Some see end of road for Abbas, peace plan

By Charles A. Radin, Globe Staff, 8/27/2003

RAMALLAH, West Bank -- The government of Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, which was established last spring as a result of US and Israeli pressure to sideline longtime Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, is on the ropes, challenged by both violent Islamic radical groups and a resurgent Arafat who seems able to thwart Abbas at every turn.

In recent days, Arafat has blocked Abbas' attempts to unify Palestinian security organs under Palestinian Authority command, stopped Abbas' appointment of an interior minister, and appointed his own defense adviser to a job that seems to undercut the position of Abbas' security chief.

Key politicians and analysts are suggesting that Abbas may resign and take down with him the so-called "road map" to Palestinian-Israeli peace. Some say the road map already is dead.

"I advise him to try to resign," Nabil Amr, minister of information and chief spokesman for the Abbas government, said in an interview. "It might put an end to some of this nonsense. Let the others" -- Arafat, with whom the US and Israelis still will not deal, and the many Israeli and US officials who think highly of Abbas -- "see how the situation will be then. Who will be the new prime minister?"

Abbas, who long was second-in-command of the Palestinian national movement, opposed Arafat's decision to embark on the armed struggle that has bloodied Palestinians and Israelis alike over the past three years. Immediately after his appointment, he embraced the road map -- a joint effort of the European Union, United Nations, Russia, and the United States that won strong backing from President Bush.

Initially, Abbas made progress both in restoring the Palestinian Authority's international relations and in easing constraints imposed on Palestinians' daily lives by the Israelis in the interest of security. But all of that is now collapsing under the combined pressures of Arafat's opposition, the resumption of terror attacks, and Israel's strikes against extremist leaders.

Abbas also seems unwilling to respond to US and Israeli insistence that he fulfill his commitment under the road map to disarm and disband the radical groups. Abbas and his supporters have resisted such a step, saying it would lead to civil war between Palestinian factions.

"If there is an item in the road map and I cannot do it, then you must help me," says Amr. "Don't deal with me in terms of your wishes or my commitment, deal with me according to what I can do. The Israelis . . . have to support [Abbas], but they want settlements, they want the fence, they want a state for the Palestinians on 42 percent" of the land the Palestinian government claims.

Gideon Meir, deputy director-general of Israel's foreign ministry, disagreed.

"The ball is completely in the Palestinian court" to act against the extremist groups, which reject Israel's right to exist and glorify suicide bombings, Meir said. "The Palestinian government would have immediate dividends if they started to fight terror."

Khalil Shikaki, a respected pollster and analyst with strong contacts in Palestinian political circles, said the road map already has failed. He said it "didn't give Palestinians enough incentive to move forward when moving forward meant risking civil war" with Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

"This motivation could only come if [the Abbas government] knew what they would be getting in the end," Shikaki said -- including specifying the borders of the provisional state promised to them in the road map, identifying the Israeli settlements that would be be removed, and clarifying the degree of sovereignty the Palestinians would have during the period of provisional statehood.

"If you want Palestinians to engage in civil war from day one," he said, "they should know what they are going to get for it from day one."

Now, Shikaki said, it is too late for that. "The dynamics of escalation are dominant," he said, predicting that Israel will reoccupy the Gaza Strip and West Bank and expel Arafat. "Israel will then have to decide whether to fully reoccupy the West Bank and Gaza," with a civil administration, as before the Oslo peace process of the 1990s, "or determine its own borders and unilaterally withdraw."

Ali Jerbawi, a political scientist at Bir Zeit University in the West Bank who leads the new Palestinian elections commission, said Arafat, Abbas, the Palestinian Authority, and the two-state concept, which has formed the basis for peace talks since the Oslo accords, all have failed and serve merely to disguise the face of Israeli occupation of Palestinian land.

"They are all irrelevant," Jerbawi said, asserting that because of extensive Israeli settlement in the West Bank, "a two-state solution is no longer a valid solution. We are headed toward a single, bi-national state, not by design but by default.

"It is better for the Palestinians if the occupation is known for what it is," Jerbawi said. "Let the Israelis be responsible for educating our children, and cleaning our streets. Let them be responsible for their security and our security too. Twenty years down the road" -- when Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories, who have higher birth rates, will outnumber Jews-- "we will ask for our rights as citizens."

A senior Israeli official, a committed Zionist who spoke on condition of anonymity, said this approach would present a genuine opportunity for Palestinians to overwhelm the Jewish state. "It is legitimate, because it is not terrorism. It is a school of thought."

© Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company.

[Freedom Tower]

TLOZ, you said to correct you if you were wrong. You weren't wrong, but there was just one thing you forgot to mention. Although many of the Jews that went to Israel were from Russia, or Europe after WWII there were many Jews already living in Palestine. Back when there was no Israel at all and there were just Jews living in Palestine there was a lot of discrimination. They weren't allowed to do things the Palestinians could do, even though they were also technically palestinians. They were treated as if they were inferior. So they were more than happy to take away the houses of some of the people that use to treat them so badly, when Israel was formed. The problem is, when the Palestinians were the ones on top, they weren't complaining. Now that Israel is the country and they are the minority or people without a country, they decide to murder innocent Israelis. Back when there was a Palestine and the Jews were just second class residents in it, there were no bombings or murderings of the Palestinians. Now everyone criticizes Israel for defending itself. LF22, I don't want to get into an argument with you, but why would you call me pro-Israeli? I am just saying what I think is correct. Do you not agree that terrorist attacks need to stop before there can be a negotiation? Would you go and talk to people who are simultaneously blowing your country up? I just think both sides need to first have a cease fire and then negotiate. However, I believe the Palestinians broke the cease fire this time by killing 20 people on a bus and wounding over a hundred. Then Israel is criticized for killing 3 terrorists afterwards. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's me that is Pro-Israeli, I think the world is just Pro-Palestinian.

[LF22]

(Edited by LF22 at 3:34 pm on Aug. 28, 2003)

[LF22]

Arguments are fine as long as they are within respectable bondaries like the debates on this forum. Calling you pro-israeli was a bad idea, so if it helps then, I'm sorry. Looking closely you would have realized I criticized both sides the best to my opinion. Actually Freedom Tower, there were bombings and murderings of palestinians before the creation of the Israeli state. In one famous incident in 1947 a hotel was bombed by Israeli nationals which killed several foreigners and palestinians which was part of the cataylst that lead to an independant jewish state in 1948. But that was 50 years ago and I don't want to delve into history. And with this thing about ceasefires and negotaiting, I couldn't care less which one was first. In the many months spent arguing between the palestinians and israeli's on which should be first many lives could have been saved. It's not so much the process as the result that matters (peace in the middle east) I actually would go and start talking with the enemy even as they blow up the country if it actually got me the peace. After all, thats how Germany and Japan saved themselves from complete obliteration in World War II, not that Israeli might actually lose to palestinians. *I got no beef with Israeli's killing terrorists. They are terrible people misguided into thier actions by the few crazy radicals. But why can't Israel kill them "á la silent assasins" in the night like they used to instead of using apache helicopters firing missiles in marketplaces and roads killing 10 other civilians. That really screws up your public image. From my opinion, most people sympathize with the death of israeli civilians but less with the death of palestinian civilians. Are Israeli lives worth more than palestinian lives? I think not. And of course there is going to be more coverage on palestinian deaths some times than israeli civilian deaths simply because more palestinian civilians have died since the uprising began. Yes, I do agree Freedom, that the palestinians screwed up big this time blowing up that bus.


(Edited by LF22 at 3:34 pm on Aug. 28, 2003)


(Edited by LF22 at 3:43 pm on Aug. 28, 2003)

[Freedom Tower]

Well LF22, thanks for clearing that up. I had no idea there were Israeli terrorists many years ago. All terrorists are bad no matter what country they are from. Intentionally killing civilians is bad no matter what your goal or cause. That is why I may have sounded slightly pro-Israeli. Currently I do not see Israel targetting any Palestinian civilians. Some do, sadly, get killed in the crossfire, but they are not the target. I see Israel targetting terrorists, whereas I see the Palestinians targeting civilians. It can be said that the Palestinians want peace, but from what I see everytime there is a bus bombing they are all cheering. I think generally the Palestinians support the terrorists, which is a bad thing. I'm all for peace in the middle east, but when Israel starts giving back the land the attacks should immediately cease. I think part of the problem is that nobody can control some of the Palestinian terrorists. Neither Abbas nor Arafat have the power to stop them. Also, most of these groups like Hamas claim they will never stop the attacks until there is no Israel left. Unless the palestinian prime minister can somehow stop the terrorists the attacks will continue and Israel will need to continue to defend themselves. This will never end becuase when Israel goes after the leaders then Hamas agains swears to get revenge. The best solution is for all the of the terrorists to be rounded up - by the Palestinian Leadership - and jailed somewhere in the palestinian areas. Then there can be peace talks and then there can be two states and the attacks on both sides can stop. Since Israel is only targetting the Hamas membors, arresting all of them would ensure Israel would have nobody to target. In addition to that, Hamas could not carry out attacks. It's the terrorists that keep screwing up the peace plan.

[LF22]

The palestinians aren't *all cheering everytime a bus bomb blows up, though it certainly looks like it. The media simply shows these rallies against because they are so much more exciting than palestinians saying they want peace. It litterally grabs the headlines. There is deep dessent within the PLO leadership itself but the PLO tries to hid it. They and the media both exaggerate the hatred of the palestinians towards the Israeli's to mask internal problems which plague the palestinian leadership. I do agree that palestinians rounding up palestinian terrorists would be a great solution but I doubt Israel has the patience and the palestinians seem to be too incompetent.

[Freedom Tower]

I think Israel would be patient enough to let the get rounded up. However if a bombing occurred during the round up they would probably retaliate and then the whole thing would be in shambles because the Palestinians would then release the terrorists. It's a huge mess and I doubt it will go away for a very long time.