Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 126

Thread: New Jersey Investing in Camden

  1. #16
    Forum Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,298

    Default

    Single-track for much of its length, it seems. Very odd; how do they operate trains in opposite directions?

  2. #17
    Moderator NYatKNIGHT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Manhattan - South Village
    Posts
    4,240

    Default

    My answer at SSP:

    Light rail will often split its two tracks to cover more territory - like, northbound up one road, southbound down a parallel road - so its more like a loop. Sometimes it is necessary when the width of two side-by-side tracks are an issue, but usually it is for more widespread access.

  3. #18
    Forum Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    3,298

    Default

    Are the roads very far apart?

  4. #19
    Moderator NYatKNIGHT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Manhattan - South Village
    Posts
    4,240

    Default

    No, usually they are just a block or two from each other. When they run side by side there will always be a crossover so the trains can switch tracks if they need to. But usually when you see a single track it is used in one direction.

  5. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    815

    Default

    Light rail will often split its two tracks to cover more territory - like, northbound up one road, southbound down a parallel road - so its more like a loop.
    That's not how this works, there are passing sidings with signals. There may be as many as 6 places where it is double tracked where trains are scheduled to meet and pass, this is how many commuter lines which are single tracked work.

  6. #21
    Moderator NYatKNIGHT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Manhattan - South Village
    Posts
    4,240

    Default

    Okay, is that what they did in Camden? I stand corrected then. All of the new light rail projects I have worked on in the last 10 years use two one-way tracks with emergency crossovers - it is the preferred method. But my point was that just because you see one track doesn't necessarily mean it's using a single track system since light rail double tracks are often separated.

  7. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    815

    Default

    It's a freight line which was upgraded a little to support light rail activities during the daytime, at night it's still a freight line.

    Don't let the street runnings fool you, it's mostly run through rural areas which is why the huge controversy over the $1 Billion cost.

  8. #23
    Moderator NYatKNIGHT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Manhattan - South Village
    Posts
    4,240

    Default

    It's not all freight line, mostly but not all. The 1.5 mile part in Camden is not shared and mostly double track from what I just read in one of my geeky Light Rail journals.

    Out in the rural areas it makes more sense to share with the freight lines, plus 34 miles of double track is expensive. Most heavy rail uses single track, but LRT does only if it has to. Light rail stations inside the city are usually closer to each other and the trains make more frequent stops than heavy rail trains, so scheduling to pass on a single track line is a system nightmare. Plus light rail can manage tighter curves and steeper slopes; in these places double track is a necessity. This is how it usually works.

  9. #24

  10. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    815

    Default

    Light rail will often split its two tracks to cover more territory - like, northbound up one road, southbound down a parallel road - so its more like a loop.
    I found a detailed map of the Newark Light Rail project under construction connecting Newark Penn Station and Broad Street Station, it does what you mentioned by splitting up and looping around a park and reconnect at Newark Broad Street station.


  11. #26
    Moderator NYatKNIGHT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Manhattan - South Village
    Posts
    4,240

    Default

    Nice. The dashed blue line on that map on the left side is the tunnel section. That is what I took construction pictures of in this Newark thread.

    Notice the LRT connects two train stations, giving commuters in NJ another option to transfer lines west of the Secaucus Transfer, and well west of Hoboken and the city. Below is the NJTransit Map where you can see all the trains that come through Newark and will now be connected by the Newark Light Rail.



    The Hudson-Bergen Light Rail also is double track. The map below is schematic, but it shows where in the line there are double crossovers indicated by an "x" or just a single "/" at single crossovers.



    Good to see that transit is picking up in the entire region.

  12. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    New Jersey
    Posts
    815

    Default

    Nice photos of Newark, I used to work in Downtown Newark on Halsey street for the State. I rode the Newark Subway on the cold and wet days from Newark Penn to my building, the connection to Broad Street station will make it easier for people who work near Penn Station bu travel on the M&E lines to get to work easier. And vice versa for those who work near Broad Street station and travel on the NEC, also the Light rail will serve the Newark Museum and Newark Public Library which are both gems!

    I walked past this building everyday on my lunch break (I even parked in that lot), there are some beautiful buildings in Downtown Newark that just need some investment.


  13. #28
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Jersey City
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by krulltime
    'Development to Offer $1.2 Billion Boost to Camden' ~ I still can't believe this is for real...somebody wake me up!

    Camden its getting better day by day. Hopefully it will be like jersey city in the near future. Although then again...
    Were you the one who about this time last year in a Jersey City post said you hoped Camden could have similar success? If so, you're the one who got me interested in Camden since then. This is great, I hope the people of Camden benefit from this renewed attention and can rebound from being the 2nd poorest city in the nation

  14. #29

    Default

    March 13, 2004

    In Delaware River Towns of South Jersey, a Light Rail, With the Emphasis on Light

    By LAURA MANSNERUS

    TRENTON, March 12 - From rail yards in Camden and Trenton, cars will roll out on Sunday morning for the very first trip on what transportation experts say will be the light rail line with the worst financial performance in the nation.

    The people along a string of shrinking towns on the Delaware River are expected to make about 5,900 one-way trips a day on New Jersey Transit's new River Line. Each trip will cost New Jersey taxpayers about $30 to cover operating costs and debt service. And the state has sunk $1 billion into the project.

    Light rail - this generation's name for streetcars and trolleys - has been introduced or revived in about 20 American cities in the last 20 years, drawing attention with a winning combination of nostalgia and novelty. How well these lines have worked is a subject of fierce debate; few if any pay for themselves. But even the state transit officials in charge of it say the River Line is a cautionary tale.

    At a time when the state treasury is bare and New Jersey Transit in particular is starving, the River Line, which will carry fewer than 1 percent of the agency's passengers, is expected to drain about $65 million a year from the transportation funds allotted for the entire state.

    "There is a desire named streetcar among planners," said James Dunn, a political scientist at Rutgers who studies public transit. But if lightly traveled rail lines do little to serve transportation needs, that is almost beside the point for the politicians who want to build them, he said.

    In the political sphere, "it's a benefits regime" that distributes jobs, contracts and influence, Professor Dunn said. "The costs are the benefits."

    And the River Line illustrates those costs.

    The line was a notion of the 1990's, when light rail was catching on across the country. New Jersey approved a 20-mile line along the Hudson, from Bayonne to Bergen County, and obtained federal funds that would eventually pay for most of it. South Jersey legislators responded with a plan for the 34-mile Camden-to-Trenton line, a proposal little noticed in the flush, free-spending years of Gov. Christie Whitman's administration, and that was approved, too. Most of the old rail line that would carry the light rail was in Burlington County, home of State Senator C. William Haines, the chairman of the Transportation Committee, who died in 1996.

    One critical distinction of the South Jersey line was that the state made no application for federal aid. "The true scandal of all this is they knew it was bad to begin with and didn't want it evaluated objectively," said Prof. John Pucher of Rutgers, a transit expert who describes himself as a proponent of light rail.

    The project has cost about three times more than the earliest estimates. Since 1996, the state has paid $476 million for the contract to design and build the system and $100 million for consultants. In borrowing to keep the project afloat, the state paid outside bond underwriters and lawyers, although those costs are minuscule in comparison to the $48 million a year to be paid in debt service.

    Officials in Gov. James E. McGreevey's administration, having inherited the River Line, thought about abandoning the project and then about letting people ride free, reasoning that the fares - $1.10 per trip - would not cover the cost of collecting them.

    George Warrington, the director of New Jersey Transit, says the light rail line will have no noticeable effect on traffic congestion.

    Like many of the River Line's supporters, Mr. Warrington describes it as an economic development project for the river towns, most of which lost population in the 1990's, even while Burlington County grew by 7.2 percent. State Route 130, paralleling the River Line, remained an underused highway lined with auto-body shops and storage businesses.

    But the Victorian flavor of villages like Bordentown and Riverside invited downtown renewal. "Private capital is gravitating back to downtowns across the state, and the anchor for much of that attraction is the train station," Mr. Warrington said.

    Mark Remsa, Burlington County's director of economic development, said that about $480 million in new construction was planned within walking distance of the line or of shuttle buses to the stations from employment centers.

    Mr. Remsa said it was almost impossible to tell whether the River Line would simply siphon development from not-too-distant points, or even from Route 130, just as it would siphon passengers from Camden-to-Trenton bus service. "But we have seen property values rising," he said, "particularly along the tracks, and a lot of people who say they're here because of the light rail."

    Even opponents say that Camden and Trenton can only benefit from the line. But some potential riders will not ride the line to Trenton because it stops about a mile from the State House. In Camden, scheduling is a problem. The terminus is across the street from the Tweeter Center, a major concert hall, but the line runs late only on Saturdays; on other days, because the right-of-way is shared with freight traffic, the last train leaves at 9 p.m.

    Criticism of the project reflects a wider, impassioned dispute over the efficacy of mass transit and of light rail in particular. Clifford Winston, an economist at the Brookings Institution, argues that public ownership of transit is governed by political - and therefore hugely expensive - spending decisions, and that planners routinely overestimate demand for new projects. "I do mind how much these things cost," Mr. Winston said, "but I mind more when no one uses them."

    In this debate, the River Line is often singled out for derision. In a new study titled "Great Rail Disasters," published in Colorado by the Independence Institute, a libertarian research organization, the author, Randal O'Toole, said, "The South Jersey rail line is so bad that it is almost a New Jersey caricature of everything wrong with rail transit."

    Many transit advocates respond that mass transit serves purposes beyond dollar-for-dollar efficiency and that new rail development invites other investments that transform their surroundings. Mr. Warrington cites the example of Metropark, the rail station that was widely labeled a boondoggle when it was built on farmland in Edison, N.J., and is now a sizable job center.The new Hudson-Bergen light-rail line has been much disparaged, too, but ridership and revenue are growing quickly as construction extends the line to transit hubs like the Hoboken bus and rail terminal.

    The comparison of the Trenton-to-Camden line and other light-rail lines around the nation is even more stark. At the projected 2.1 million trips a year, ridership on the River Line would be far below the least successful new projects: Buffalo's 6-mile-long light rail (about 5.8 million trips a year) and San Jose's 29-mile line (about 7.8 million trips a year). Among the more successful lines, St. Louis has almost 15 million trips a year, Dallas 13.7 million, and San Diego more than 25 million.

    The projected farebox receipts for the River Line - $1.4 million in the first year - fall far below any other new line's revenue. Given $18 million to $19 million in operating and maintenance costs, fares will cover about 7 percent of costs and require a subsidy of just over $8 per trip. When the $48 million debt service is added, the recovery is 2 percent and the subsidy $31 per trip.

    The River Line has proven painful to many public-transit advocates, who do not want to discourage new investment or the delicate progress that rail lines are bringing to urban centers.

    Professor Pucher at Rutgers, who does not even own a car, calls the River Line "probably the worst transit investment in the entire country."

    "I'm really upset because it's just bankrupting New Jersey Transit," he said. "It's going to postpone desperately needed improvements in North Jersey. The trains are overflowing. We need another tunnel into Manhattan. We need double-decker trains."

    Like many transportation experts, Mr. Pucher said areas like South Jersey, where development is scattered, are much better and more cheaply served by buses. But bus service is notoriously hard to sell, he added. "Even the Federal Transit Administration has said that the main problem with buses is they don't look like trains."

    Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

  15. #30

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. New Jersey running out of Open Space
    By Kris in forum New York Metro
    Replies: 67
    Last Post: March 3rd, 2015, 10:06 AM
  2. 3 New Towers in Jersey City
    By Zoe in forum New York Metro
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: November 2nd, 2012, 06:55 AM
  3. Jersey City's Other Waterfront
    By JCMAN320 in forum New York Metro
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: September 29th, 2006, 05:12 PM
  4. Brooklyn to Jersey City
    By JCMAN320 in forum New York City Guide For New Yorkers
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: September 2nd, 2003, 08:04 PM
  5. Bear Stearns cancels Jersey City move
    By NYguy in forum New York Real Estate
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: February 27th, 2003, 11:12 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


Google+ - Facebook - Twitter - Meetup

Edward's photos on Flickr - Wired New York on Flickr - In Queens - In Red Hook - Bryant Park - SQL Backup Software