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Thread: Atlantic Yards Development - Commercial, Residential, Retail, NBA Arena

  1. #1516
    Forum Veteran krulltime's Avatar
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    It makes total sense! Word up!

  2. #1517

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stern
    Why try to turn the place into Manhattan? The better question is why not to try to turn the place into Manhattan? Is Manhattan, NYC, not the greatest city in the world? We should aspire to greatness; Brooklyn should not be encouraged to stagnate. Will Brooklyn turn into Manhattan, impossible, it is it’s own entity; the factors that created Manhattan cannot be recreated here, evident by the fact that nothing in the world is “like” Manhattan. Brooklyn should aspire to greatness, Manhattan greatness, and everything that goes along with it, skyscrapers, parks, and areas of congregation, stadiums, and density. Manhattan is great. That said Manhattan should not be in the Brooklyn language, as it will never be Manhattan, but greatness should be.

    Interesting logic. You know, Las Vegas is a pretty great place too. Millions of persons visit it from all over the world! So why not recreate the Strip right down Flatbush Avenue? It would be less tacky than those Gehry/Ratner concoctions.

  3. #1518
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    Much of the stagnation in Brooklyn can be laid at the footsteps of City Hall. Brooklyn has always desired growth, increased investment and more vibrant and appealing business district. Manhattan-centric City Hall has been dictatorial in its planning. Brooklynites are very, very pro-development. There have never been issues as to whether to develop or not, but rather what should be developed. With the exception of truly anti-development group of elitists in Brooklyn Heights who do not want to see anything exceeding 10-stories in the borough, the majority of Brooklynites supported the downtown rezoning (Atlantic Yards falls outside those zoning boubdaries). That zoning called for very substantial height increases, increased density, improved infrastructure and every manner of development. Brooklynites supported the expansion of the BAM cultural district. They support the Brooklyn Bridge Park, but oppose the construction of luxury condos on parkland.

    The difference between Manhattan and Brooklyn is attitude. Brooklyn is about neighborhoods and there is a coalescence around issues that affect neighborhoods. This is not to say that neighborhoods don't exist in Manhattan, but a person living in a high-rise building in Manhattan generally knows fewer neighbors than a person living in a Brownstone neighborhood of Brooklyn. It is not any lack of visions of grandeur on the part of Brooklynites, just a difference of opinion as to what makes Brooklyn great compared to New York. There are distinct differences between Brooklyn and Manhattan. Distinctions that are as clear and different as the way a New Yorker lives versus the people in Alabama.

    Broolynites are not adverse to change or compromise. In Park Slope, the neighborhood roundly supported the upzoning on Fourth Avenue. On the other hand, they vigorously opposed the design of a Commerce Bank building during its development stages. Didt hey work to kill the project? No. They appealed to the bank for dialogue and extracted a compromise design that kept the building and the property layout more in tune with the neighborhood.

    In Coney Island, Thor Equities is proposing a large-scale luxury hotel with "amusement theming." Brooklynites are pretty much opposed to this development. Are they opposed to the hotel? No. They are opposed to the construction of a hotel in the amusement zone. Would they oppose the hotel a block north or west of the amusement zone? No. They support development and would work hard to help get a project like that to come to fruition. Others wold have Brooklyn accept ANYTHING simply because it is SOMETHING. Brooklynites are a lot more patient that Manhattanites. I think Manhattanites are quick to decribe something as blight and Brooklyn is more willing to live with an empty lot or run down building until the appropriate thing comes along.

    There are definitely feelings that Brooklyn should do great things and we already believe it is a great place - certainly a better place to live than Manhattan. The vision for greatness here is just different than Manhattan. Manhattan is its own great thing. Brooklyn isn't Manhattan and I think the people of the borough will dig in to keep it from becoming Manhattan-lite.

    Downtown has been rezoned. Let's see what happens with that.

  4. #1519

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    Quote Originally Posted by BPC
    Interesting logic. You know, Las Vegas is a pretty great place too. Millions of persons visit it from all over the world! So why not recreate the Strip right down Flatbush Avenue? It would be less tacky than those Gehry/Ratner concoctions.
    Straw Man.

  5. #1520
    Forum Veteran TREPYE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynRider
    I think Manhattanites are quick to decribe something as blight and Brooklyn is more willing to live with an empty lot or run down building until the appropriate thing comes along.
    So what is "appropriate" for a pit in the ground like the Atlantic rail yards?? How long are you willing to wait? Until the development boom is over and we get stuck with those beautiful rail yards for another 30 years.

    Fact of the matter is that Ratner is coming up with something a lot better than most developers would bring to the table. He does have to change some aspects of it -such as that semi-private park on top of the arena and perhaps shortening Miss Brooklyn- but overall I would rather this get developed than end up with nothing at all for 30+ years or end up with somebody like SOM designing glass rectangles.

  6. #1521

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    Quote Originally Posted by TREPYE
    So what is "appropriate" for a pit in the ground like the Atlantic rail yards?? How long are you willing to wait? Until the development boom is over and we get stuck with those beautiful rail yards for another 30 years.

    Fact of the matter is that Ratner is coming up with something a lot better than most developers would bring to the table.
    If nothing short of perfection is acceptable, the ideal becomes the enemy of the possible.

  7. #1522

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp
    Straw Man.
    No, an example designed to illustrate a point -- there are different kinds of greatness. Brooklynites are not wrong to oppose someone else's idea of the concept imposed upon them.

  8. #1523
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    Quote Originally Posted by ablarc
    If nothing short of perfection is acceptable, the ideal becomes the enemy of the possible.
    I don't think anyone is looking for "perfect," but neither are they willing to sit back and watch one greedy developer, with a track record for building ugly, low-end buildings, come to the public trough repeatedly for his "private developments and steamroll over a community. Everytime Stuckey from FCRC opens his mouth to react to the criticism, it is almost always prefaced with a statement about the $1.2B investment and the economics of the project. They continually drive this point, while ignoring the fact that the public is investing in the project as well with substantial infrastructure improvements and giving Ratner the tax proceeds for "reinvestment."

    You can argue that this is better than "nothing" for the next 30 years. I would argue that if it isn't built "right" we are better with nothing. Ratners Atlantic Center was supposed to be the big revitalized for that intersection as well. It wasn't. Atlantic Terminal is STILL incomplete. Metrotech is sterile and abandoned during off hours. From where does everyone draw their unbounded support and from what do they conclud that this guy is capable of delivering on anything. His projects are value engineered to crap - every last one of them. And that is value engineering on already crappy designs.

    Also, no one is addressing his slipshod approach to demo and the contiuous streak of breaking laws in his rush to demolish buildings suddenly deemed "dangerous," when only a year ago they were inhabited - some continually for nearly a century. He's behaving like a thug.

    The size of this site is huge and the biggest problem is that this is not a project of ego, like Rockefeller Center. There is no grand, inspiring vision to be built whatever the cost. What we are getting is a project wholly dictated by number crunchers. I know people disagree, but other than "Miss Brooklyn" and the arena, we are getting an updated Starrett City as a welcome mat and centerpiece for Brooklyn. It's abysmal.

  9. #1524

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    Quote Originally Posted by BPC
    No, an example designed to illustrate a point
    You quoted a post, and refuted it by example.

    Straw Man

    Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted

    The central point of Stern's post is:
    Brooklyn has always seen itself as more as a city than as a borough and no city aspires to be second to any other.
    You cited as example, Las Vegas, as alien to New York as it gets. Maybe Brooklyn should aspire to be more like Boston; it's 50 percent larger, and has 4 times the population.

    I could understand opposition to this project based on the architecture, but the people of Brooklyn (whoever that encompasses) have been against it from the begiinning based on scale, given the awful (but low rise) project they endorsed.

    I guess we should not fully develop the city's fouth largest transport hub, and pretend, as Jonathan Lethem does, that it is W4th St in the Village.

  10. #1525
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynRider
    You can argue that this is better than "nothing" for the next 30 years. I would argue that if it isn't built "right" we are better with nothing. Ratners Atlantic Center was supposed to be the big revitalized for that intersection as well. It wasn't. Atlantic Terminal is STILL incomplete. And that is value engineering on already crappy designs.
    That is a very selfish way of looking at it. As if it were a: "Its ether my way or nothing else" kinda way to go about things. Fact of the matter is that the area is defunct now and for you to say that you are willing to settle for it to be defunct for another 30 yrs is not very considerate for Brooklyn's best interest.

    Yes the Atlantic center suxed big time but I see this as a formidable complement to that mistake. Hire an artist like Gehry (not a mere yes man simpleton architect like David Childs) to design original asymmetrical towers that resemble sculptures to give the area some flair.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynRider
    we are getting an updated Starrett City as a welcome mat and centerpiece for Brooklyn. It's abysmal.
    PLEASE man this plan is nothing like the grotesqueness of Starrett City which has buildings that were built as disgustingly banal as you can possibly build 'em in between 2 bad neighborhoods. That is a horrible comparison.

  11. #1526
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Perhaps 30 years of "nothing" (or something different that better serves Brooklyn in the long run) is preferable to going forward on a mis-guided project that will in essence be "forever".

    Of course if Ratner / Gehry succeed in getting this project built then Brooklyn will adapt to it in one way or another -- that is the nature of things. But that doesn't mean that it is the right project.

  12. #1527
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Ratner’s shadow looms

    Pratt study: Atlantic Yards would put Fort Greene in darkness


    A Pratt Institute study produced
    this rendering of winter shadows
    that would be cast on Fort Greene
    if Bruce Ratner’s Atlantic Yards is built.
    The existing Williamsburgh Savings Bank
    building is the thin tower at the far left.
    Prof. Brent Porter, Architect;
    The Christina Porter Memorial Lighting Lab, Pratt Institute;
    Roman Strazhko

    By Gersh Kuntzman
    The Brooklyn Papers

    http://www.brooklynpapers.com/html/i...29_25nets1.php

    Bruce Ratner has been accused of many things, but now he’s being accused of stealing the sun from the sky.

    According to a new analysis by a Pratt Institute professor and two students, shadows from the developer’s Atlantic Yards mega-project would darken a wide swath of Brooklyn from Prospect Heights to Downtown — including a strip in Fort Greene that won the “Greenest Block in Brooklyn” contest in 2002.

    At its worst — at 9 am on Dec. 21 — the shadow from the 62-story “Miss Brooklyn” building, proposed for the corner of Atlantic and Flatbush avenues, would extend all the way to Fulton and Gold streets.

    “Shadows from September to March will be severe,” said Brent Porter, the Pratt professor. “Once those buildings go up, the shadowing will be forever.”

    Porter said he and his students — Roman Strazhko and Samantha Sommers — do not have an official position on Ratner’s 17-skyscraper, 8.7-million-square-foot arena, office and hotel development, but were speaking out now because so little has been said about the effect of the shadows.

    The issue did come up at last week’s Municipal Art Society forum (see story, above), but not as urgently as Porter hoped.

    “I’m speaking out because I won’t take this crap anymore,” he told The Brooklyn Papers. “These shadows are a serious environmental impact.”

    Porter said that shadows will be minimal during the summer, when Brooklyn, like the rest of the northern hemisphere, is tilted towards the sun.

    “But in the winter, suddenly there’ll be no light across most of Fort Greene most of the day,” said Porter, who added that a forthcoming Environmental Impact Statement for the project “won’t be worth the paper it’s printed on” if only summer shadow impacts are analyzed.

    “That’s how you’ll know that the EIS is a sham — if they only give the summer numbers,” he said.

    The professor’s findings were hailed by Atlantic Yards opponent Alan Rosner, who mentioned shadowing at last week’s forum.

    “Even the president says we’re addicted to oil, so we need to be doing whatever we can to develop solar power,” Rosner said. “But Ratner would deprive us of that.”

    Charles Jarden was simply concerned about the garden on the top of his five-story building on Fort Greene Place.

    “We use our roof deck all year, so it’s very disturbing,” he said. “The sun is currently unblocked, so this would be a big, unwelcome change.”

    A Forest City Ratner spokesman would not respond to questions about the shadows.

  13. #1528
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    ^ What is it about this project that brings out every chicken-little?

    “Even the president says we’re addicted to oil, so we need to be doing whatever we can to develop solar power,” Rosner said. “But Ratner would deprive us of that.”
    Now there is a Brooklyn wide solar power movement that Ratner is supposedly stopping. The arguments against this are getting more and more ridiculous by the hour.

  14. #1529

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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1
    Of course if Ratner / Gehry succeed in getting this project built then Brooklyn will adapt to it in one way or another -- that is the nature of things.
    Why will Brooklyn have to adapt? The concept of Brooklyn is being tossed around like it is Chelsea or Bensonhurst.

    Brooklyn is three times the size of Manhattan. Move two miles away from AY, and it would hardly be noticed. The neighborhoods around it will have to adapt.

    This map merits reposting:


    The pervasive changes that Brooklyn must adapt to have nothing to do with 600 ft buildings, and have been going on for years - the runaway increase in housing costs. A house selling for $1 million in Red Hook is much more significant to the character of the borough than shadows on Ft Greene Park.

    Some of the people who are complaining about changes in their neighborhoods caused significant change themselves, when they began moving in, paying outrageous prices and driving up rents.

    The Brooklyn Renaissance is nice, but it has a dark side, more subtle than a big project. Neighborhoods gentrify, and people are forced out. At least with a big project, the issue moves into the public eye, and maybe creative ways can be found to prevent it.

  15. #1530
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    This light garbage is bad news. This is like that stupid fish that was used to prevent westway from being built. Unbelievable what these people conjure up.

    If shadows are such a problem then they should cut down all the trees in the neighborhood as well as preventing these buildings from being built. If this project is cancelled then perhaps they deserve to get nothing more than the rat infested pit rail yard thats already there.

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