You're not serious on this are you?Originally Posted by SilentPandaesq
On this hypothetical: In a document that purports to relay necessary scientific information a "typo" regarding levels of dangerous materials (especially if that number lowers the level) is very suspect.
^ well no. Admittedly, it is a bad example. Anything that is trully dangerous is likely to be double checked by Ratner's team before it went out. The point is, that "finding errors" and then attributing them to malfeasance is difficult. Since you get into a he said she said argument.
WNBC
Builder Launches P.R. Blitz For Brooklyn Nets Arena, High-Rises
August 23, 2006
NEW YORK -- The public-relations blitz to win support for the Atlantic Yards project in Brooklyn kicked off Wednesday, with a pop star pitching in to convince New Yorkers the controversial plan will help the borough.
The Empire State Development Corporation planned to hold its first public hearing on the project, which aims to build several high-rise condo and apartment towers as well as a 20,000-seat arena for the New Jersey Nets basketball team. Developer Bruce Ratner bought the Nets in 2004.
But several community organizations are opposed to the $4.2 billion plan. The group Develop Don't Destroy contends the project, planned for the old Vanderbilt rail yards along Atlantic Avenue, is too big and will destroy the character of the old Brooklyn neighborhood.
The group also calls millions of state and city tax dollars promised to help build the project corporate welfare at its worst. Ratner has said the project is about affordable housing.
The Atlantic Yards project has overwhelming support from several politicians.
New York Acorn, which lobbies on behalf of poor to moderate income families, also supports the project. New York Acorn's Bertha Lewis said the Atlantic Yards project is historic and that the devoloper has promised to make 50 percent of the rental units available to low-income tenants.
Pop singer Roberta Flack also spoke in support of the project, telling the media, "This is a good thing."
Most of the outspoken supporters you are talking about are members of ACORN and BUILD, who have received funding, jobs and/or promises of jobs from Ratner in exchange for support.
Well...Yea. That is my point. Clearly those people that need/ want jobs at the complex have just as much stake in the project as those that oppose it. I don't think it helps to question the self-interest of those who support it, when those who oppose it are doing so out of self-interest.
My point was/is that if the opponets had put forward a plan that provided jobs for ACORN and BUILD without the massive-ness of the current plan, then they would of had more support from the entire community.
As it stands now, the Yea/Ney breaks down on Class/Racial lines, which is something I don't think anybody (with the possible exception of Ratner) wanted. While that might not be important, it is still a perception issue that the opponets have failed to deal with, and it is costing them support.
http://ny.metro.us/metro/local/artic...ject/4128.html
Raucous hearing for arena project
Backers and foes of Brooklyn Nets arena plan turn out in droves
by amy zimmer / metro new york
AUG 24, 2006
DOWNTOWN BROOKLYN — The line snaked around the block to get into the 800-seat auditorium at the New York City Technical College for yesterday’s public hearing on Bruce Ratner’s $4.2 billion plans to build a basketball arena for the New Jersey Nets, plus 16 high-rises in the Atlantic Yards area.
Hundreds of supporters were bused in by organizations that signed a Community Benefits Agreement with Ratner that promises affordable housing and jobs for Brooklynites. Union construction workers also showed up, many arriving earlier than the hundreds of opponents who wanted to voice concerns about the shadows of skyscrapers, the burdens of traffic and the loss of Brooklyn’s character. Both sides were rowdy.
“This could be my big break,” said Keith Brown, 32, an unemployed carpenter and member of Brooklyn United for Innovative Local Development, a group that brought him there at 11 a.m. to speak his mind. “I’ve been living here all my life and seen the changes coming. This could be my chance to get into the union. If I can keep employment for five or six years, I’m good for a while.”
The Frank Gehry-designed development over the 22-acre site — a portion of which includes building over the Metropolitan Transportation Authority’s rail yards at the intersection of Atlantic and Flatbush avenues — would include an 18,000-seat arena to house the Nets by the 2009 season and would create between 5,790 and 6,860 apartments — 2,250 of which would be set aside for low- and moderate-income families.
But Mary Wade, a public school teacher who’s lived in Clinton Hill for 25 years, didn’t think the project would help people like her — “the working poor and middle class” — and she didn’t think it would provide quality jobs or housing that she could afford.
“I look at [Ratner’s previous project] Metrotech, which promised jobs to the community and to help fix the area’s poverty,” she said. “Well, there’s still 75 percent poverty here. Ratner’s using jobs to hide behind something bigger — his profit.”
Borough President Marty Markowitz, a major cheerleader for the project, said that “Brooklyn is a world-class city and we deserve the Atlantic Yards [project].”
In his testimony, however, Markowitz said the plan needed to be scaled down.
“The Williamsburgh Savings Tower should remain the tallest building in Brooklyn,” he said. He also wanted the developer to “get real about traffic and parking.”
Carolyn Konheim, from the Community Consulting Services, said Ratner is underplaying the traffic impact. Closing part of Fifth Avenue and Pacific Street will direct more traffic into Fort Greene and Boerum Hill, she said.
“We’re talking 10 to 12 minute delays,” she said. “When you have that, the delays reverberate throughout the whole network.”
And while Ratner has promised MetroCard discounts to arena-goers, she said, “Anyone who can say a $2 discount will make a difference for people buying those tickets will never do my books.”
Team spirit
• Last night was the first of two opportunities for the public to speak out about the Draft Environmental Impact Statement released last month by the Empire State Development Agency, the state agency overseeing the project. The next meeting is Sept. 12, from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. at New York City Technical College, 285 Jay St., Brooklyn.
• Before last night’s meeting, developer Bruce Ratner brought out current Nets Jason Kidd and Vince Carter to cheerlead for the arena project.
Slowly, but surely, the activists are changing other people's minds. But contrary to what has been said in their defense, the concerns raised by them, and echoed by Marty in this soundbite, are relatively unimportant, and reflect a lack of critical analysis, namely: tall + dense = bad, and Metrotech = Atlantic Yards. Both of those "equations," if I can call them that, are false.
NY Post
HOOP DREAMS DRAW A FOUL
By RICH CALDER
August 24, 2006
Critics of developer Bruce Ratner's plans for an NBA arena in Downtown Brooklyn cried foul during a raucous public hearing last night.
Supporters of the $4.2 billion plan said it would revive the borough.
"I believe Atlantic Yards is the right project for the right place at the right time," Borough President Marty Markowitz told the Empire State Development Corp. hearing.
But angry residents said the hearing's organizers unfairly allowed pro-project politicians and union leaders to speak first.
"I think it's depressing that people are coming here just to stand on a soapbox," said Deborah Goldstein of Sunset Park.
Celebrity supporters of the project include Net stars Jason Kidd and Vince Carter.
"I can't wait to play here," Kidd said.
"I hope I'm not too old" when it's finished."
__________________________________________________
NY Sun
Sides Clash as Atlantic Yards Development Project Edges Closer to Approval
By DAVID LOMBINO - Staff Reporter of the Sun
August 24, 2006
The raucous debate over the Atlantic Yards development spilled out into the streets yesterday as an overcrowded public hearing left hundreds of Brooklynites arguing with each other over the mega-project's merits.
The public hearing was a necessary step toward securing final approval of the $4.2 billion plan to build a basketball arena and 16 towers containing 6,860 apartments on 22 acres near downtown Brooklyn. Some of the development would be built over the Atlantic rail yards, and some on land bought by the developer or to be seized using eminent domain.
Opponents, mainly white, have complained that the project, which will create the densest census tract in the country, will negatively impact the community's infrastructure, ensnarl traffic, and ruin its low-rise character. Supporters, who appear to be predominantly African American, say that it will bring about 2,250 units of "affordable" housing to a borough facing soaring housing costs, and bring much needed jobs.
The 800-seat auditorium of New York City Technical College was at capacity and hundreds of people waited outside on a line that bent around the corner, where many engaged in charged, informal debates over the project.
Inside the auditorium, more than 250 people signed up to speak. With each speaker allotted three minutes, the state's moderator, Ted Kramer, said there could be more than 12 hours of public testimony.
Despite a warning from Mr. Kramer that "cheering, booing, and placard waving" was not allowed during public testimony, a lively, diverse crowd colorfully interrupted speakers at will. One local resident against the project, Connie Leshold, 68, was removed from the auditorium by security after to she stood up, yelling and pointing at state Senator Martin Golden.
Just before the public hearing began, developer Bruce Ratner held a celebrity-filled press conference nearby. "This is about affordable housing, jobs, and bringing a spirit back to Brooklyn," Mr. Ratner said.
The developer owns the New Jersey Nets, and hopes to move them to the Atlantic Yards arena. Nets stars Jason Kidd and Vince Carter were on hand at the press conference yesterday, along with singer Roberta Flack.
Opponents at a recent rally brought out celebrities like Steve Buscemi and Rosie Perez, but a spokesman for the umbrella group against Atlantic Yards, Develop Don't Destroy Brooklyn, Daniel Goldstein, said that no celebrities were on hand yesterday.
Inside the auditorium, debate continued in the aisles and in the foyer. A student from Boston College and Brooklyn native, Benjamin Lee, said he favors the project because it would revitalize the borough. "The rail yards are just a big, unused space," Mr. Lee said.
Yesterday's hearing also represented the only time that property owners in the project's footprint can go on the public record to oppose the state's pending property condemnation.
An attorney who lives in the footprint, who requested anonymity, said he had discussed with the developer the idea of selling his home, which has been in his family for three generations.
"We've talked but I find the idea of selling out offensive," he said. "It will create a lot of affordable housing, but in doing so it will kick out my grandfather, who could afford this housing 30 years ago."
On September 12, the state will hold a community forum about the project. The state's development agency will review the public comments over the next 30 days and incorporate changes into the general project plan and final environmental impact statement, which must be approved by the agency's board and the Public Authorities Control Board. The developer hopes to open the basketball arena for the 2009 season.
Reminds me of the decades Philadelphia's skyline was kept flat and uninteresting by folks who said this about Philly's City Hall. Now that numerous buildings are taller, no one in Philadelphia says, "We shouldn't have allowed that."
Not that it matters....But are we sure that Rosie Perez is a celebrity....that seams like a lie to me.
There not beaten, the project delays are costing him millions and in the end it will be built, but at half of what was invisioned. plus they are playing stall tactics in hope that by keep delaying and with a housing drop, the projects scale will be tolerable.
I dont think anyone really thinks it wont be built at all, its just the size
Not offering an opinion on whether it applies here, but over the decades since they were required by law, EIS filings have evolved from the intended transparent documentation of well, enviromnmental impacts, into public relations documents in support of projects.
Learn something new every day.
I pay my employees and consultants, and they promote my interests.
What hypocrites!
For their ethical health, I should instruct them to say nothing nice about me as long as they're being paid.
New York Times
August 24, 2006
Raucous Meeting on Atlantic Yards Plan Hints at Hardening Stances
By ANDY NEWMAN
Brooklyn residents waited in a long line Wednesday to get into a public hearing on the Atlantic Yards plan, a project that would transform Downtown Brooklyn. The meeting, at New York City College of Technology, lasted more than five hours and sparked vehement speeches on both sides.
An overflow crowd vehemently laid out the pros and cons of the proposed Atlantic Yards project in Brooklyn for seven hours last night at a raucous public meeting. Their passions suggested that opinions had only hardened in the three years since development plans were announced.
“This project essentially separates the neighborhoods of Brooklyn rather than uniting them,” said Jonathan Barkey, a photographer, brandishing posters he had generated of proposed skyscrapers towering over existing brownstones and playgrounds. “I would call this development a Great Wall of Brooklyn.”
Bring it on, said Dan Jederlinic, an ironworker. “Bulldozers are coming,” he warned the project’s opponents to whooping applause, “and if you don’t get out of the way they’re going to bulldoze right over you!”
Clamor over the 22-acre project seems to have grown since last month, when a draft environmental impact statement said the project would choke traffic at dozens of already busy intersections and strain the area’s infrastructure. The development would alter the skyline just east of Downtown Brooklyn with a basketball arena and 16 buildings with nearly 7,000 units of housing.
Even Borough President Marty Markowitz, the project’s loudest booster, tempered his praise with pleas that it be scaled back. Current plans call for the tallest building to be 620 feet high. Mr. Markowitz said the 512-foot Williamsburgh Savings Bank building must remain the borough’s tallest building.
“I believe we can reduce the scale of the project while preserving the affordable housing and other benefits for Brooklyn,” Mr. Markowitz said.
Like a similar meeting in October, last night’s forum, at the New York City College of Technology in Brooklyn, mostly boiled down to a face-off. Supporters focused on the jobs and lower-income housing they said the project would bring to a borough badly in need of both; opponents warned that the project would destroy neighborhoods that had recently made tremendous strides.
The Municipal Art Society, a private planning and preservation group, released a statement criticizing the project yesterday.
Not for the first time during the three-year debate, divisions along race and class lines revealed themselves.
Umar Jordan, 51, a black resident of Bedford-Stuyvesant, said he had come to “speak for the underprivileged, the brothers who just got out of prison,” and he drew loud cheers when he mocked opponents who had moved to Brooklyn only recently. Mr. Jordan suggested that they “just go back up to Pleasantville.”
“People complaining about the size of a building, the height of this or that?” Mr. Jordan said. “Welcome to the hood; this is Brooklyn!”
The Atlantic Yards project, proposed by the developer Forest City Ratner with plans drawn up by the architect Frank Gehry, calls for more than eight million square feet of development near the crossing of Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues, two of Brooklyn’s biggest thoroughfares.
The plan includes more than 2,200 rental apartments priced below market rates and more than 4,000 other residential units, as well as an arena for the Nets professional basketball team, stores and a hotel. Forest City Ratner is the development partner of The New York Times Company in building its new headquarters on Eighth Avenue in Manhattan.
The $4.2 billion Atlantic Yards project is intended to generate more than 1,500 construction jobs during the 10-year building process, plus hundreds of permanent jobs afterward and $1.4 billion in tax revenue.
But a 1,400-page draft environmental impact statement released last month by the Empire State Development Corporation, the project’s sponsor, found that as currently proposed, it would snarl traffic at 68 intersections during peak travel times and on some game days at the arena.
The study found that the project would also block views of the landmark bank tower, gobble up scarce parking spaces and strain aging sewer and water systems.
With only a month to go before the end of the public comment period on the Atlantic Yards study, yesterday’s forum, which began at 4:30 p.m., drew hundreds more people than the college’s 880-seat auditorium could hold. By 9 p.m., 300 public speakers were still waiting for their turn at the microphone. The scores who did not get a chance to speak by the meeting’s end at 11:30 could come back Sept. 12 at the next, and last, forum, organizers said.
The board of the development corporation will cast a final vote on the project in the fall.
Of the minority of speakers who actually addressed the environmental impact statement itself, some complained that they had been given only a few weeks to digest a foot-high stack of statistics and diagrams. Others said that elements of the statement were based on unrealistically rosy projections.
Outside the auditorium, meanwhile, hundreds from the housing group Acorn, which supports the project, chanted, “This is our neighborhood, and we know what is good.”
The Rev. Herbert Daughtry, a civil rights activist whose church nearly abuts the project site, was talking to reporters about the need for lower-income housing when Mr. Barkey, the photographer, interrupted him.
“Like this?” Mr. Barkey said sarcastically, pointing to his posters of huge, blank building faces towering over a neighborhood. “This is rich folks’ housing. Look at these walls.”
Mr. Daughtry was not impressed. “Don’t you understand that all we’ve been around is walls all our lives?” he said. “You need to take that somewhere else.”
Michael Amon contributed reporting for this article.
Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company
Hmm.. are you sure.. the developer has already stated that the reason for the size of the project is so that the project (the areana) can sustain itself. He has made a brilliant move by planning alot of affordable housing. Where exactly would he scale back? Once the project has been approved by the state.. the money is his. He has already purchased most of the land for the project. Its a slick move on his part.. one he has thought out for years.
Like a chess game. And Bruce says"checkmate"
Its also very disconcerning that Marty is so interested in keeping the 512 limit in Brooklyn. I understand he is a politician, and he strying to be balenced, especially as he contemplates a run for mayor however, even if they are valid concerns about the projects density and porportion.. I don't think they will be solved by reducing the hieght of the tallest building to 511 feet. I thnk the effect will be the same if the building were fatter and shorter. I think we all agree that we would prefer a taller more slender tower than a short stubby one. In the end the opponents might look at the ugly tower they got, and regret it.
Last edited by bkmonkey; August 24th, 2006 at 10:10 AM.
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