Atlantic Yards Development - Commercial, Residential, Retail, NBA Arena

[investordude]

I have misgivings about the stadium, but corporate interest in them is a plus. I think it's ridiculous to have a class warfare argument about a basketball stadium. But in terms of economics, seems like corporations pay for advertising and for box seats. This, which represents a largish portion of what money stadiums make, subsidizes the costs for other people who buy season tickets.

I have no idea what proportion of Brooklynites versus others want season tickets, nor do I see think it really matters in the grand scheme of things. If you want a class warfare argument, we can talk about whether schools are being shortchanged, etc, but I'm not impressed about who buys tickets to a basketball game.

[TREPYE]

I think what this arena does is make Brooklyn a destination for tourist and people from other parts of NYC-metropolitan area. Once you get past Coney Island theme parks, the Brooklyn Heights Promenade, and the Prospect Park Museums what is there to do in Brooklyn? Brooklyn needs to have a lot more involvement in a tourist itinerary and I think that an arena is a good way to give the borough more prominence.

Just imagine during nationally televised a Brooklyn Nets game they show the arena with a backdrop of those funky Ghery designed buildings. It may just work on people curiosities and make them check the area out. Of course with this you have to make sure that the area will be somewhat trendy via opening more restaurants, bars, etc. Also, connect the arena's accessibility to the New Brooklyn Bridge Park (via trolley, or whatever), which I'm sure it's going to be a great tourist draw as well.

[Eugenious]

Just imagine during nationally televised a Brooklyn Nets game they show the arena with a backdrop of those funky Ghery designed buildings. It

It all sounds great on paper but think about it, this guy has ruined one huge track of land already with the Atlantic Mall, they should make him tear it down and built the Arena on the same plot of land. The displaced retail could be intergrated into the Arena and the surrounding buildings.

Why cant they build somethnig like this in Brooklyn? You would think the biggest borough of New York City would be the place to build something as attractive and aweinspiring as this. Instead we get a stalinist slab of concrete hell.

A futuristic mall is new Turkish playground
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/...esign12_28.php

[pianoman11686]

Eugenious, I think you're missing a fairly important, broader point here. If you want your neighborhood to gain a new structure that looks like "a million bucks", it's got to somehow be related to something that's "a million bucks."

What kind of retail and restaurants are in this shopping center again? KMart? KFC? Do you ever see those kinds of institutions in upscale malls? I don't think so.

If you think Ratner should have poured a lot more money into the mall, then he should have found better tenants willing to pay higher prices to be there. Problem is, you can't find a Nordstrom's, a Ruth's Chris Steakhouse, or a Bvlgari to set up shop in a predominantly lower-income neighborhood. Why don't you go back to that article about the shopping center in Turkey and read what kind of clothing designers and retailers are interested in being there.

Let's see what happens to land values once Atlantic Yards gets built. If there is a greater demand for higher-end uses, I wouldn't be surprised to see the shopping mall get a complete makeover to accommodate those more lucrative enterprises.

[ablarc]

Let's see what happens to land values once Atlantic Yards gets built. If there is a greater demand for higher-end uses, I wouldn't be surprised to see the shopping mall get a complete makeover to accommodate those more lucrative enterprises.

Good point.

[investordude]

As wealthier tenants move into new condos in Fort Greene, you'll get the stores you like and stop complaining about the mall. As it stands, the Target and Chuck-E-Cheese seem like pretty useful stores for the stroller set, including the affluent stroller set, so the retail in the mall is already a plus in my opinion.

Could use a few good restaurants, but the surrounding nabe has great food.

[lofter1]

What kind of $$ does Ratner's existing POS mall generate?

[Teno]

How man seats will be left and available for the guy or gal on the street to attend games at this arena -- which is being touted as good for Brooklyn?

I don't see this situation as being much different from MSG.

The only way I've ever had good seats at the Knicks is through a friend of mine whose boss has corporate season tickets.

Since Ratner has reneged on his former promise that the area atop the arena will be a publically accessible park / open space it appears that what is being proposed / built will be more of a private club rather than a public amenity.

What's with the obsession with that park on the roof. At this point practically any decision can be changed.

What kind of retail and restaurants are in this shopping center again? KMart? KFC?

I agree even though the mall isn't really for me, just like Fulton Street it does serve the needs/wants of the neighborhood.

It will be interesting to see how things change around here as higher income people move in bringing higher end restaurants and stores. Hopefully everyone will be able to coexist.

What kind of $$ does Ratner's existing POS mall generate?

All I can say for sure is that Target is a busy place.

[lofter1]

What's with the obsession with that park on the roof.

Don't you mean the "not the park" on the roof?

I just don't like it when people lie. And I use it as a basis to judge how that person will perform in the future.

At this point practically any decision can be changed.

Oh, wait ... excuse me ... I'm laughing so hard I can hardly type ...

If you believe for one second that in the future Ratner will make good on the park that he originally presented and then took away (can you keep that straight?) you are far more optimistic than I'll ever be

[Eugenious]

What kind of $$ does Ratner's existing POS mall generate?

The Target alone pulled in over $1 mil on black Friday.

Just imagine if this mall was built with PRINCIPLES and VISION and IMAGINATION.

Have you ever heard of The self-fulfilling prophecy ?

The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come true.

You do NOT build a monstrosity that is so repulsive just because it is a low income area. It has nothing to do with the tenants, I've been in Florida and North Carolina where they have very tasteful and acceptable malls(if there's such a thing) which are not upscale at all.

The whole point of architecture is to UPLIFT and IMPROVE an area and the experience of the human beings that pass by it, the objective is NOT to "fit in" to the depressing land scape.

Ratner should be ashamed of himself, McKim Mead & White are turning over in their graves.

[Teno]

If you believe for one second that in the future Ratner will make good on the park that he originally presented and then took away (can you keep that straight?) you are far more optimistic than I'll ever be

I was actually saying the opposite.

That at this point the status of the park is able to be changed from public to private.

I have misgivings about the stadium, but corporate interest in them is a plus.

Sports teams do create popularity, civic pride, and mind share for a city. I'm not sure if their is really any way to measure this but it does increase awareness.

[antinimby]

The Target alone pulled in over $1 mil on black Friday.

Just goes to show that you don't need to do things right in order to be successful in this city.

It's all about incompetency here.

O'Hara and Kaufman are as competent in designing buildings as a two year-old with Down's Syndrome and yet they are thriving like you don't believe in this city.

So much for "if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere."

Ha!

You do NOT build a monstrosity that is so repulsive just because it is a low income area. It has nothing to do with the tenants, I've been in Florida and North Carolina where they have very tasteful and acceptable malls(if there's such a thing) which are not upscale at all.

My point about this city once again.

Complacent and too proud for their own good New Yorkers will quickly dismiss these other places as backwaters but it's us that are falling back.

Even Jersey City is showing us up.

[pianoman11686]

The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a[/I] false [I]definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come

You do NOT build a monstrosity that is so repulsive just because it is a low income area. It has nothing to do with the tenants, I've been in Florida and North Carolina where they have very tasteful and acceptable malls(if there's such a thing) which are not upscale at all.

The self-fulfilling prophecy is nonsense, when applied to a situation like this.

I don't know where you shopped in North Carolina. In the Durham area, there are two main, enclosed shopping malls. One of them is Northgate - a dingy, old POS with a Sears as its anchor tenant, a crappy food court, and a tire center plunked right in the middle of the parking lot. Thankfully, it's turned a little better recently as Macy's has rehabbed its building (built at a later time and detached from the main concourse), but this was part of a broader corporate effort to rehab all its stores. Needless to say, the area around it is filled with older houses which, by the lack of their maintenance, leads me to believe they're very cheap. The other mall is Southpoint, among the tenants is a Nordstrom, Cheesecake Factory, Coach, Swarovski, and a kickass food court. Needless to say, it's within the "new Durham" area - lots of gated communities, golf courses, and new condos.

There's a reason Short Hills Mall is in Short Hills, and not in Newark. There's a reason Roosevelt Field is in Nassau County, and not in Queens. There's a reason Bloomingdale's is in SoHo and not in the Lower East Side. There's a reason Time Warner Center has retailers like Pink, Coach, and Sephora, while the new Harlem mall will have Costco and Target.

I've got nothing against retail serving the needs of the community. Different neighborhoods have different needs, and it seems like Atlantic Center fills that role well. But the look and feel of a shopping mall has everything to do with what kinds of retailers lease there, which has everything to do with how much money they can charge for their products, which has everything to do with who will be shopping there. To pretend that all neighborhoods, no matter what the income level, should have equally impressive malls that cost the same amount to build, is ridiculous. Sure, there's some room for variation, but not much.

Could Ratner have spent more money on Atlantic Center and still made a profit? In all likelihood, yes. But it wouldn't even be close to Time Warner Center, and yet some of us still think that one's design is inadequate.

[Eugenious]

Could Ratner have spent more money on Atlantic Center and still made a profit? In all likelihood, yes. But it wouldn't even be close to Time Warner Center, and yet some of us still think that one's design is inadequate.

Your argument is POS. First of all I never said the Atlantic Mall has to look like the Mall at Short Hills or Roosevelt Field. All I said was that when you build a ugly garbage dumb looking mall that makes King's Plaza seem elegant you are doing a disservice to not only the neighborhood and it's residents but the city.

New York is supposed to be a world class city, this piece of crap does not belong here. Brooklyn deserves a world class mall, just as they are selling the $750/sqf lofts and condos in the area they should have built the mall to cater to the future residents as well as the current.

And about the self-fulfilling prophecy it is NOT non-sense. When you build schools that look like prisons you'll have more criminals, when you build housing projects that are uniform and depressing you will get hopelessness and drug addiction, when you build malls that look like Atlantic Mall you enforce the stereotype that good architecture can only be built in rich neighborhoods and FOR rich people. Working class people deserve better.

[lofter1]

I was actually saying the opposite.

That at this point the status of the park is able to be changed from public to private.

Hello!!! Ratner has already done that ...