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Thread: WTC Memorial - by Michael Arad (Architect) and Peter Walker (Landscape)

  1. #1501

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge
    Um, we had 1 attack that was proven to be foreign terrorism on native soil, and that was 9 years prior to 9-11. Wait until 2010 before you even start saying we are "safer".
    I did not say we are safer, nor did I imply it. Not sure why you would put quotes around a word I did not use. If you go back and read my posts, you will see that my point was just the opposite. There is a growing threat against us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge
    Where do you get this? This is such an arbitrary statement it is hard to prove or refute. What acts are you referring to? Domestic or overall? And what does Clintons policy have to do with the Iraq war? You are using something that is not directly comparable to try to prove a point.
    My point was there is no correlation whatsoever between acts of Al Qaeda-based domestic terrorism and whether our foreign policy is nominally pro or anti-muslim. Clinton launched military to save muslims, and 9/11 followed. Bush has occupied 2 muslim countries, and to date no 9/11 like event has followed. That does not mean it won't; only that, whether it will or won't doesn't have a damn thing to do with our foreign policy. The "blame America" crowd would like to argue that, but the facts are just the opposite. Islamic fundamentalism exists and will continue to exist and grow regardless of our foreign policy. That is not to say there aren't good reasons for why the Iraq War was a mistake -- there are a lot of them. Stopping domestic terrorism just isn't one of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge
    I do not know how this will make a zealous group just all of a sudden lay down and give up though.
    It won't cause the enemy to give up, but it may, in the long run, discourage them, even just a little, which is better than nothing at all.

  2. #1502

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp
    how many times do I have to say that rebuilding the WTC has nothing to do with stopping terrorists.

    I have stated that they are not afraid of us, so showing strength has no effect

    I have stated that the after the 1993, going about our lives did nothing to stop 09/11.

    The point about the Israeli buses is that their going on about their lives does not deter terrorism. I am getting tired of repeating that.

    My stupid suggestion was actually a sarcastic remark in response to your suggestion that...


    Self-serving speculation, nothing more.
    Your absolute statements on each of these is self serving speculation and nothing more.

  3. #1503

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    ^
    I have no agenda here, but I think you do.

    Are those items really speculation?

  4. #1504

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp
    ^
    I have no agenda here, but I think you do.

    Are those items really speculation?
    Please speculate on my agenda.

  5. #1505

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    Stating that family members are acting selfishly, or that politicians are corrupt does not make very good copy. People might conclude that the family members are entitled, or that well, politicians are what they are.

    But tell people that they are being manipulated into fear; that hits them in the ego.

    The most powerful and deadly characteristic of fear is that we are unable to admit to it. It drives us while we live in denial.
    Yes, we are all in denial about our fear to rebuilt the WTC, but we demand that the city construct schools for our children in the same neighborhood.

    Maybe the conspiracy to "derail the rebuilding process" can be merged with the conspiracy that brought down the WTC. Add Bill Clinton to the mix and we can blame the whole thing on Skull & Bones.

  6. #1506

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp
    Stating that family members are acting selfishly, or that politicians are corrupt does not make very good copy. People might conclude that the family members are entitled, or that well, politicians are what they are.
    Not the ulterior motive I thought you'd give me, and I guess I don't know what constitutes an ulterior motive from a core motive . . . But . . .

    I think I have come out in print and said that SOME family members are acting selfishly. Other writers have done so here and there, but I've been as consistant and strong on this condition as anyone.

    I've also, in print, attacked politicians on their agendas. I hear people in the Bloomberg camp aren't too pleased with what I've written.

    So I've written and taken the hits directly on the ideas you claim I'm avoiding. That doesn't mean that there aren't other factors at work here. As you say, we are in denial about fear. Being in denial about fear is worse than admitting it and dealing with it. So if I tell people they are being manipulated into fear, it may be to reach their egos or it may be to wake them up.

    Right now, the memorial is a grand statement in how sorry we can feel for ourselves. I'd prefer the WTC overall to be a statement in how well we can respond to and recover from a disaster while respecting those who died. My core ulterior motive is that I want the WTC rebuilt as best it can be, because its my neighborhood, I loved it before 9/11, and I want it to be better now.

  7. #1507

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    I didn't state that you were avoiding other aspects of the conditions, but seem to be preoccupied with the notion of fear.

    Fear is not in evidence in Lower Manhattan, is hardly present in any of the rhetoric, and is generally not present in posts on this forum.

    As you say, we are in denial about fear.
    That is not quite what I said. More like...
    Yes, we are all in denial about our fear to rebuilt the WTC, but we demand that the city construct schools for our children in the same neighborhood.
    The contradiction gives it a different tone.

  8. #1508

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    We've certainly heard enough "fear" talk in the past and it has been used to justify various party's ulterior motives. The "fear" talk has certainly subsided greatly in the last year.

    What's been less obvious is that a lot of positions taken on the rebuilding issue have been driven by a feeling of emasculation, the whole "we must xxx or the terrorist have won / they're laughing at our inability to rebuild" argument usually used by the "rebuild the twins" or "the building(s) must be as tall and powerful as possible" groups.

    Neither position is routed in reality.

    IMO, the rebuilding should try as much as possible to proceed on a sound aesthetic, economic, and urban planning foundation and try to ignore as much as possible fear-mongering and pleas to re-masculate.

  9. #1509

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    Fear has subsided, but that doesn't mean our current position can't be attributed to fear.

    There were different types of fear. Fear of another attack. Fear of being insensitive to someone in mourning. Fear of public criticism. Fear of saying something that could be interpreted as anti-American, even if it was true. The 9/11 agenda was about fear and many people sensed it and used it for their agendas.

    JM, I agree completely with your last paragraph. It's completely rational and logical. But I've also experienced the fear based response to your premise. It goes like this, "Those greedy selfish people just want to find a way to make more money on the graves of our dead loved ones. How can they think about making things better when 9/11 is so much bigger than that. They are stuffed suits who just don't get it."

    Getting to rebuilding required people to stand up and be bigger than the dialogue, to lead without fear. That didn't happen. It's easy to build a building on a desolate block off the beaten path. It's hard on 16 acres overwhelmed with fear.

  10. #1510

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    Quote Originally Posted by davestanke
    Those greedy selfish people just want to find a way to make more money on the graves of our dead loved ones. How can they think about making things better when 9/11 is so much bigger than that. They are stuffed suits who just don't get it."
    ??????

    I thought we were discussing the fear of terrorism in New York vs the negative message not building quickly sends to terrorists.

    If what you describe is fear, it is

    fear of being politically incorrect
    fear of embarrassment
    fear of ghosts?

    We can consult a book of phobias and attach the word fear to almost anything.

    They are stuffed suits who just don't get it.
    Check past and present large projects in New York that have been resisted by an organized group, and you will invariably find that quote.

  11. #1511

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    I caught a bit of an interesting show last night on the Statue of Liberty and the construction of its pedestal. The delays and politics involved where horrendous. Plans took forever to get off the ground and construction was halted more than once. Governor Cleveland even vetoed spending passed by the legislature for it.

    There really is nothing new under the sun.

  12. #1512
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    On the recent attacks in Mumbai ( link via Andrew_Sullivan ) ...

    Bombay and Stoicism

    12 Jul 2006 12:30 pm


    (Photo: Sebastian D'Souza/AFP/Getty).


    An Indian reader vouches for this email from a friend in Bombay. It sends a powerful message to terrorists. One weapon we have is outrage and a refusal to be numbed by their evil. Another weapon is an aggressive attempt to find and kill these people. A third is something Americans are not so practised in: stoicism. We will, I believe, suffer many more attacks in the future. I think we will endure worse than 9/11 in the coming months or years. We have to remind ourselves that one way of fighting back is simply to carry on as if nothing has happened, to deny them the paralysis they want, to keep the freedom they want to destroy. Here's the email:
    Not-so-Dear Terrorist,

    Even if you are not reading this we don't care. Time and again you tried to disturb us and disrupt our life - killing innocent civilians by planting bombs in trains, buses and cars. You have tried hard to bring death and destruction, cause panic and fear and create communal disharmony but every time you were disgustingly unsuccessful. Do you know how we pass our life in Mumbai? How much it takes for us to earn that single rupee? If you wanted to give us a shock then we are sorry to say that you failed miserably in your ulterior motives. Better look elsewhere, not here.

    We are not Hindus and Muslims or Gujaratis and Marathis or Punjabis and Bengaliies. Nor do we distinguish ourselves as owners or workers, govt. employees or private employees. WE ARE MUMBAIKERS (Bombay-ites, if you like). We will not allow you to disrupt our life like this. On the last few occasions when you struck (including the 7 deadly blasts in a single day killing over 250 people and injuring over 500 in 1993), we went to work next day in full strength. This time we cleared everything within a few hours and were back to normal - the vendors placing their next order, businessmen finalizing the next deals and the office workers rushing to catch the next train. (Yes the same train you targeted)

    Fathom this: Within 3 hours of the blasts, long queues of blood donating volunteers were seen outside various hospital, where most of the injured were admitted. By 12 midnight, the hospital had to issue a notification that blood banks were full and they didn't require any more blood. The next day, attendance at schools and office was close to 100%, trains & buses were packed to the brim, the crowds were back. The city has simply dusted itself off and moved one - perhaps with greater vigor.

    We are Mumbaikers and we live like brothers in times like this. So, do not dare to threaten us with your crackers. The spirit of Mumbai is very strong and can not be harmed.


  13. #1513
    The Dude Abides
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    I wonder how much of that (stoicism) comes from what is inbred, culturally, versus simply having had prior experiences with these kinds of attacks and not being that surprised or shocked when they occur again.

    9/11 is still the only wide-reaching terrorist attack in America's history. The 1993 and Oklahoma City bombings were much more localized, didn't do nearly as much damage, and were not as shocking as the idea of flying planes into office towers. We'd all seen and heard of buildings being bombed before. 9/11 was different.

    I think there is still a lingering belief among many Americans (although much less so than prior to 9/11), that America doesn't get attacked. We fight our wars on other people's territory. And so when something happens at home, the response is one of shock and fear: "Are we really that vulnerable?"
    I think the response to Pearl Harbor was very similar.

    I also suspect that if and when a significant attack occurs on our mass transit system, that people will not be able to deal with it as quickly and as resolutely as Mumbaikers, or Londoners, or Tokyo-ers. They are accustomed to the prospect of attack on their home soil. We still are not.

  14. #1514

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    Quote Originally Posted by JMGarcia
    I caught a bit of an interesting show last night on the Statue of Liberty and the construction of its pedestal. The delays and politics involved where horrendous. Plans took forever to get off the ground and construction was halted more than once. Governor Cleveland even vetoed spending passed by the legislature for it.

    There really is nothing new under the sun.
    Same for what many consider the model of New York building prowess - the subway.

    It was debated for years after London opened the first Underground in the 1860s. It took the Blizzard of 1888, in which the city Els ground to a standstill and over 100 people died, to push political will toward building it. It was still debated for years afterward, while Boston opened the first US subway in 1898.

  15. #1515
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPC
    The Turkish occupation of Cyprus is not an historical event. Turkey continues to this day to militarily occupy approximately 40% of the island of Cyprus, with 40,000 mainland Turkish troops, armed by NATO and the USA, through which it maintains an ethnic apartheid between Cypriots of Greek and Turkish origin. What you are citing is actually an example of anger over current, not historic, events, and thus undermines, not supports, your point.
    Um, no it doesn't.

    What you are doing is picking something apart,. The act occured 25 years ago, regardless of current occupation. It shows how long hate can last.

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