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Thread: WTC Memorial - by Michael Arad (Architect) and Peter Walker (Landscape)

  1. #1531

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    he described "how beautiful" it was as the World Trade Center fell and the reaction of the “wretched” American people who quickly embraced Islam.
    Can someone explain to me what this sentence means? "Embraced" Islam? Is he trying to say that upon seeing the Trade Center collapse NYers converted to Islam? I ask that someone please clarify because if I'm reading that right this just might be the stupidest thing I heard this year.


    As a side note about America's collapse, I'm sure it will happen, even the Roman empire fell apart and one could even argue that if the EU becomes a more complete entity it would be the "end" of Germany and France. I'm sure the US will eventually change its name or split into sovereign states (which we sort of already are) some time from now. But to say that America will collapse into some 3rd world (sorry sorry "developing") country is ridiculous, especially coming from "scholars" from countries that have no exports other than what Exxon pulls from their ground.

    As another side note, few state collapses were as spectacular as that of Rome and yet Italy seems to be doing just fine. As far as the prospect of Muslims "sacking" NY, well hahaha.

  2. #1532

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    Quote Originally Posted by BPC
    I beg to differ that either Spain or Italy has had more serious terrorist attacks than 9/11.
    like...?

  3. #1533
    Crabby airline hostess - stache's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp
    Were they deterred by me standing defiantly on the F train, or was it good police work and me not flashing a Rolex while hanging on to the pole?
    Zippy were you a dancer?

  4. #1534

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    Quote Originally Posted by alonzo-ny
    like...?
    My poor phrasing. I meant to say that: "I beg to differ WITH THE CONTENTION that either Spain or Italy has had more serious terrorist attacks than 9/11."

  5. #1535

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake
    As another side note, few state collapses were as spectacular as that of Rome and yet Italy seems to be doing just fine.
    Define fine. Nice cloths and good food? Then I agree.

  6. #1536

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    Quote Originally Posted by stache
    Zippy were you a dancer?
    Only for a while when the mortgage payments were tough.

  7. #1537

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    First of all, this absolutely is a "WAR" on Terror that has spread from Asia to America. North Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Africa, the whole Middle East, Europe (Spain & England, France etc...) to Canada and the USA. The Chechnyans, Kashmir, Al-Quada, Hamas, Hezballah, and the Jihadists. Before 9-11 the West thought of these people as criminals; after 9-11 they are enemies of the State, as well as any nation that supports them. If anyone of them had their chance, they'd cut your head off, whether you support the "WAR" or not, just because you are free to disagree. Wake Up.

  8. #1538
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greater NYC
    First of all, this absolutely is a "WAR" on Terror that has spread from Asia to America. North Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Africa, the whole Middle East, Europe (Spain & England, France etc...) to Canada and the USA. The Chechnyans, Kashmir, Al-Quada, Hamas, Hezballah, and the Jihadists.
    Thanks for the geography lesson...

    Try to keep your argument more coherent. You just described a bunch of nations that the war has spread to (in your eyes) and then you start mentioning nationalities instead of nations, then groups, and then you just give up and say "jihadists".

    Big list there with no real direction.

    Before 9-11 the West thought of these people as criminals; after 9-11 they are enemies of the State, as well as any nation that supports them. If anyone of them had their chance, they'd cut your head off, whether you support the "WAR" or not, just because you are free to disagree. Wake Up.
    Um, you are getting off kilter with your rave here. Terrorism is not a particular nation. It is a military tactic used by small forces. It can be compared to guerrilla warfare in many of its tenets, although its main targets are usually soft-civilian targets that are easier to hit and damage and cost less to do so.

    Having a War on a tactic is a loose appellation that makes it easy to define almost any nation that fits with the users definition of terrorism.

    I am not saying that 9-11 was not an act of terrorism, but declaring war against a small group of people who were hiding out in one country that, even now, have to ASK people to support them who are of different ideologues (see Lebanon and Hesbola), is kind of silly.

    It is being used as a propagandist term to not only garner support from the American people by turning this into an Us vs Them situation (you are either with us, or you are supporting the terrorists!!!! etc etc) and in the process rob us of many of our civil liberties in the name of our safety against a small, but credible threat.

    The irony being, the terrorists have less of a chance of changing our way of life, even in full force, than our own governments actions to prevent them.


    Your juvenile ranting about people having their head cut off and rallying behind a blind banner of pseudo patriotism is not generally welcomed and it would be advised that if you wanted to continue to converse, that you address the issues rather than scream and yell bloody murder at the drop of a hat.

  9. #1539

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge
    Having a War on a tactic is a loose appellation that makes it easy to define almost any nation that fits with the users definition of terrorism.
    While technically correct, the observation is rather trite, has already been made ad nauseum, and does not really add anything worthwhile to the discussion. Everyone knows it is just a label. The real war (and it is very much a war) is on Islamic fundamentalism, but that term is not used (wisely) in order to avoid offending the sensibilities of our Islamic allies. Obviously, truth in labeling does not always jibe with diplomacy. So what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge
    It is being used as a propagandist term to not only garner support from the American people by turning this into an Us vs Them situation (you are either with us, or you are supporting the terrorists!!!! etc etc) and in the process rob us of many of our civil liberties in the name of our safety against a small, but credible threat.
    Most people who live around here, having seen 2700 persons die before us, do not consider the threat "small." Perhaps someone who lived through the Battle of Stalingrad might have that perspective, but somehow I suspect you didn't.

  10. #1540
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPC
    While technically correct, the observation is rather trite, has already been made ad nauseum, and does not really add anything worthwhile to the discussion. Everyone knows it is just a label. The real war (and it is very much a war) is on Islamic fundamentalism, but that term is not used (wisely) in order to avoid offending the sensibilities of our Islamic allies. Obviously, truth in labeling does not always jibe with diplomacy. So what?
    So that means that if we are not happy with diplomacy, with people afraid to call things for what they really are in fear of offending someone or putting it in the wrong (or in this case the truthful) light, then we cannot say anything?

    If something has been pointed "ad nauseam" it is usually because NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE ABOUT IT!

    Shooting oneself in the foot has never been known as "Pedestrial reconfigurement" and continuing to do so AND call it as such will raise the same concerns and complaints.



    Most people who live around here, having seen 2700 persons die before us, do not consider the threat "small." Perhaps someone who lived through the Battle of Stalingrad might have that perspective, but somehow I suspect you didn't.

    Um, I am really confused as to your last statement. What does the battle of Stalingrad, and the inherent casualties and tragedy suffered then diminish the loss now?

    Dead is dead. If an action is producing more deaths, does it matter when the number is 2700 or 20,000? Are you starting to quantify? We have not reached our death-quotient so therefore expressing dissatisfaction with the deaths so far is not a valid assertion?

    Also remember, things like Stalingrad were during WWII, which had QUITE a different connotation than the war in Iraq.

    You know WWII, so I will not get into that. And I swear if I hear one more person use WWII as a "benchmark" for what is going on I will smack them!

  11. #1541

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    Some rantings by Islamists... this is a War, and maybe it should be called a War of Freedom against Islamist Theocrats.

    Islamic fundamentalist cleric Omar Bakri has warned that "the day will come that the flag of Islam will fly over the Big Ben and the British Parliament."Bakri elaborated that "what is called today Londonistan is actually Kufferstan, in other words the land of infidelity. I think that loyal Muslims in Britain will turn it on the day of days, with the help of Allah, into Islamastan, in other words into Dar al-Islam (Land of Islam), as the first Muslims did in Ethiopia and Indonesia. Then the big Islamic dream will be realized, and we will see the flag 'there's no god other than Allah' flying from the Big Ben and the British parliament, with the help of Allah."'Don't assimilate into infidel society'

    Narseal Batiste (arrested in Florida) told an “al Qaeda representative” that he wanted to attend al Qaeda training with five of his soldiers, with a mission to wage a “full ground war” against the United States in order to “kill all the devils we can,” which “will be just as good or greater than 9/11.”

    Following are excerpts from speeches and interviews with Iraqi Ayatollah Ahmad Husseini Al-Baghdadi, which aired on Al-Jazeera TV on May 5, 2006, on Syrian TV on May 3, 2006, and on ANB TV on April 14, 2006. Ayatollah Ahmad Husseini Al-Baghdadi: Jihad in Islam, from the perspective of Islamic jurisprudence, is of two types: Jihad initiated by the Muslims, which means raiding the world in order to spread the word that "there is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah" throughout the world. But this raid will not materialize in our era - the era of barbaric American capitalistic globalism -unless the Infallible, peace be upon him, is present.But there are jurisprudents, both Sunnis and Twelver Shiites, who said the presence of the Infallible is not a prerequisite. If the objective and subjective circumstances materialize, and there are soldiers, weapons, and money - even if this means using biological, chemical, and bacterial weapons - we will conquer the world, so that "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah" will be triumphant over the domes of Moscow, Washington, and Paris.

  12. #1542
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    RANTINGS is the operative word ...

    What -- besides supposed deliverence of converts -- do they offer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greater NYC
    Some rantings by Islamists...

    I think that loyal Muslims in Britain will turn it on the day of days, with the help of Allah, into Islamastan, in other words into Dar al-Islam (Land of Islam), as the first Muslims did in Ethiopia and Indonesia.
    Oh, yeah right ... and look what a success they have made of those countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greater NYC

    If the objective and subjective circumstances materialize, and there are soldiers, weapons, and money - even if this means using biological, chemical, and bacterial weapons - we will conquer the world, so that "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah" will be triumphant over the domes of Moscow, Washington, and Paris.
    And thereby they will deliver to their converts a wasteland.

    The promise of a better existence AFTER death in this world leads many religious fanatics to be enamored of death.

    So much for the enlightenment, eh??

  13. #1543

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    True, the issue is that there are an abundance of these people that want to destroy our way of life, and although they are a bunch of whackos, they are a threat. Hitler was a whacko, and so was Stalin.

    And as far as relating to WWII, calling for the destruction of Israel and all Jews (Hamas, Hezballah, Al-Quada) is in line with what Hitler believed. If Europe had the intuition to take him on in the 1930's....

    History does repeat itself.
    Last edited by Greater NYC; July 28th, 2006 at 11:45 AM.

  14. #1544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greater NYC
    First of all, this absolutely is a "WAR" on Terror that has spread from Asia to America. North Korea, Thailand, Indonesia, India, Africa, the whole Middle East, Europe (Spain & England, France etc...) to Canada and the USA. The Chechnyans, Kashmir, Al-Quada, Hamas, Hezballah, and the Jihadists. Before 9-11 the West thought of these people as criminals; after 9-11 they are enemies of the State, as well as any nation that supports them. If anyone of them had their chance, they'd cut your head off, whether you support the "WAR" or not, just because you are free to disagree. Wake Up.
    If this IS a war, then someone will have to explain why 95.5% of Americans are completely unaffected by it. If it is a war, then why is the President hosting American Idol finalists at the White House tonight, when he is commander-in-chief. If this is a war, then why are our borders porous and this country filled with illegal aliens that we refuse to prosecute. If this is a war and the government continues to assert that it is not meeting recruitment goals, why are we not implementing a draft. If it is a war, why aren't the Bush twins in combat fatigues and at the front? Why is Jeb Bush's son in college and not the armed forces? If you feel this is a war and a just war at that, why aren't you registering for service?

    This is not a "war" - a war is an action of last resort and, when it is chosen, a country makes every sacrifice necessary to ensure success. If we are at war, why are oil companies making more money in profits per minute than we spend in total to outfit our soldiers. Why are our soldiers being forced to buy their own body armor and forbidden from wearing body armor that is not from a specific manufacturer. If this is a war, why are we cutting taxes while roiling in huge expenses. If this is a war, why are national guard reservist troops being deployed overseas rather being at the ready state-side in case of attack? If this is a war, what exactly did the "Mission Accomplished" banner mean three years ago as more men die daily.

    If this is a war, what exactly is our objective? If this is a war, what are the indicators that we have won or lost? If this is a war, who exactly is the enemy?

    If this is a war, what was the reason for starting it? The attack on September 11th got us to Afghanistan, which recent news articles report as in complete anarchy with a return to Taliban-style rule. The "war" in Iraq was initiated to stop the imminent threat of WMDS (Lie), due to direct connections between Saddam and Al Qaeda (Lie), free the Iraqi people from oppression (Lie - especially as the leaders are becoming more and more anti-american and installing a Sharia constitution), implement democracy (lie), bring peace and stability to the Middle East (lie).

    If this is a war, what do you say to people going to Disneyland? What do say to people driving Hummers with radios blaring, the same vehicles our soldiers are being blown to bits in? What do you say to politicians who are focusing attention on same-sex marriage? If this is war, why hasn't the president, vice president, first lady or other executive branch officials gone to ANY military funerals? Why are we forbidden to see the caskets of our troops, who fought with honor, coming off the planes at Dover AFB? Why are the wives and families of those troops FORBIDDEN to meet those transports and the remains of their husbands, fathers, sons, daughters, sisters and mothers? If we are at war, why has this president been away from the White House on vacation more than any other president in history? If we are at war, why aren't we seeing shipping containers being inspected? Why are our ports being controlled by foreign corporations? Why have we not naationalized our ports for war?

    If we are at war, why are Veteran's benefits being frozen? If we are at war, why is the president considering sending 30,000 troops to Lebanon as "peacekeepers" effectively opening a third front in the Middle East for the U.S.? If we are at war, why are we outsourcing troop support, like meals, drinking water, security, provisions to one contractor - Kellog Brown and Root aka Halliburton?

    If we are at war...
    If we are at war...
    If we are at war...

    The only war going on for America is the class war that has been initiated and strategically fought at every stage by this administration and Congress that sends poor folk to do the bidding of big oil corporations. This is a war by the rich and corporations against the middle class and poor. It is a war that makes citizens on the homefront the enemy and subject to illegal wiretapping, illegal sharing of private phone records, illegal search and seizure, illegal imprisonment, illegal torture, and the rejection of every anti-nuclear proiliferation treaty ever signed and the Geneva Conventions.

    The ONLY "war" is the one that this administration has declared on our Constitution and international law.

    The U.S. stands alone - wrong and isolated. And, if it is a war, international public opinion thinks we are the aggressor. They think the US is the biggest threat to world peace in existence today.

    Our "great and noble cause"... You want to define that for me?
    Last edited by BrooklynRider; July 28th, 2006 at 12:23 PM.

  15. #1545

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynRider
    If this is a war, what exactly is our objective? If this is a war, what are the indicators that we have won or lost? If this is a war, who exactly is the enemy?

    The ONLY "war" is the one that this administration has declared on our Constitution and international law.
    So true...

    And well said, my friend.

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