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Thread: WTC Memorial - by Michael Arad (Architect) and Peter Walker (Landscape)

  1. #1561
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1
    I'm exhausted just reading it ....
    I know.

    I am exausted reading it too.

    Who are these guys??!?







  2. #1562

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    OK.... enjoy a heated debate, and disagreement makes the world go 'round, but back to the memorial.

    BR, this was a PUBLIC event, and for the case of many, including my family, this is the graveyard. No body parts found. Ground Zero is a cemetary, and must, at least partially, be represented as much. A tombstone placed elsewhere may be a nice symbolic gesture (as we have done), but to visit the place it happened mens much moe. I agree that many citizens following the attack stood up to do their part, giving blood, red cross volunteers, etc... but nothing was more intense than the job many people, both civilian and first responder, did on "the pile" day in and day out. The memorial will be a tribute to civilization, honoring the way we all came together, and honoring the many differing actions people took to do what the felt was right. And as far as those who went to work that day just being victims, I find it hard to believe that those trapped inside did not do heroic things as they tried to get out. I believe many civilians inside died trying to help others out. To me that is a heroic action. I also know that children of those who died in the attacks, years from now, will be proud to stand on Church and Vesey, saying, "My dad died in there, trying to save others." The healing process will continue to go on for years, just as the families continue to live their lives.

    As for the memorial itself, there are two parts, one being the remnants of the "Towers", and the visions we saw day in an day out. The crumbled facade that stood strong, drawing you closer to the site, and seen on TV every night. The steel cross found in tact, the "globe" sculpture, and a representation of the three fire fighters raising the American flag should all be visible above ground. The names of all those killed should also be portrayed above ground.

    The second part is the rebuilding and use of office and retail space (as planned.) We need to "stick it" to those who tried to destroy our economic heart, and our way of life. Rebuild larger and better.

    "I am convinced that ground zero must first and foremost be a memorial. All other decisions should flow from that goal. If anything else is added to the site, it should complement and not overshadow the memorial. People a hundred years from now should be able to grasp the enormity of this attack by visiting this sacred ground. Ground zero is a cemetery. It is the last resting place for loved ones whose bodies were not recovered and whose remains are still within that hallowed ground. We must respect the role these events play in our history." -Rudy Guiliani

    www.takebackthememorial.org
    Last edited by Greater NYC; July 30th, 2006 at 08:50 PM.

  3. #1563
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    The first thing to be ripped out and removed before anything started on the WTC site was that steel cross. It has no place in a public memorial. It might have some sort of mytholgocial meaning for some people, but I am guessing they would largely be Christian. Although I am an ardent defender of freedom of religion. I believe that freedom, one of the many that George W. Bush said we were attack for having, also protects people from the imposition of religion. A cross, star of David, crescent, buddha, pentagram, or other religious symbol has no place in a public memorial. It's something that should be as free, as private, and as much without government sanction or condemnation as sexual orientation.

    That cross can be moved to St. Nicholas Church or some other more appropriate place, but it should have been removed from that site with the rest of the heap or WTC remains. It is a completely contrived artifact.

    Considering the poisonous pall that covered the city, despite the EPA's assurances, I would oppose the return of any piece of the rubble to the site. We all saw the rubble and anyone can go to YouTube to see the video of the towers collapsing over and over again.

    I'm all for revising the design of the memorial, but I believe that less memorial and more parkspace is better for the city and community. Bringing in hulking pieces of "destruction" plants a scar in the site forever.

    BPC, with regard to the comments on Al Qaeda and the Taliban, I believe you are endorsing the destruction of radical fundamental Islam or Islamism as the definition may be. I don't know that I object to the stance given their commitment to perpetual war and their willingness to die "martyrs" for their cause. But, let's not dress it up and pretend it is anythig other than a war on Islamism. The Taliban has be routed and yet Islamism rears its head again in Afghanistan. Osama is off the front page and we allgedly destroyed all their training camps and hideouts, so it is Islamism we are fighting - not Al Qaeda. Problem is that by going after a religion that has vowed to destroy the Western world and the U.S. in particular, we are engaged in a modern inquisition. People can criticize Bill Clinton's administration for the USS Cole attack, but the result wasn't hundreds of thousands dead and US Troops fighting a shadow enemy. When we consider the deaths from the WTC attack and the deaths and casualities in Iraq and Afghanistan, it becomes disprportionate. All we have proved is that we have a greater capacity to kill if we wish to go down that path. Peace and diplomacy might be more difficult and take more time, but there will now be generations of Muslims in these countries and the Arab world seek revenge. Violenc begets violence. We are feeding the cycle.

  4. #1564

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    Yes, BR, sometimes violence begets violence, but sometimes appeasement begets violence (Chamberlain) and sometimes violence abates violence (Churchill). Frankly, I don't believe that diplomacy will work with militant Islam, when they demand not only the return of Afghanistan (whose last occupation led to the unprovoked destruction of Lower Manhattan) but also Andalusia (which is part of NATO) and East Timor (they blew up the UN HQ in Iraq specifically to protest East Timor's independence). These people, like Hitler, want to take over the world. Our choice is either to fight or to surrender. There is no middle ground on their side, so it's no use pretending there can be one on our side. That still means we have to be smart and humane about it, which I don't believe the current administration has been. But that doesn't meant the war is not worth fighting. Frankly, civilization depends upon it.

  5. #1565
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    BPC, diplomacy would work, but it needs a fulcrum to work with otherwise it is just a stick on the ground with no leverage to do anything with besides beat the thing you are trying to move until the stick breaks.

    The key here is ego. Mans desire to be right. We have to deconstruct where these guys are coming from and find a way that they can find appeasement, through their own machinations, that will also construct a harmonious interaction with their neighbors.

    One example would be have and have nots. As Bush and Co. demonstrated in their own post-adolescent careers, the haves rarely, if ever, want to put their own lives at risk for a belief or philosophy alone. The same holds with many middle eastern royal families.

    The only ones that I see fighting are the ones that have nothing on their own, or stand to gain a great deal by fighting. How do we change this? How do we eliminate this motivating force? For one, we avoid any "discussion" of religion. That has never worked. You have to find out what they would believe would denote success in their lives and find a way o make it so that they can have it without feeling inadequate when compared to their neighbors.




    Now, back to the memorial. It is a MEMORIAL, NOT a graveyard. As soon as you denote it as such, you have relegated the entire site as a casualty of a philosophical war with no clear front line and no clear end.

    Graveyards in general are our own weak attempts to somehow connect the inert physical remains of a loved one to their being and that is outright primitive (sorry).

    We are a VERY physically oriented species that seems to think that these remains, no matter how small or indistinguishable, are somehow sovereign and instead of joining back in the cycle of life on this planet, should be preserved so that we can look at a stone placed above them years later (whether or not they are really even there anymore) and say "Remember aunt Bessie?".

    Turning the WTC into something like that is a supreme materialistic, egotistic power joint relegating a sizable portion in a necrophilial homage to the feat that touts the success of Islamic Radicalism and its power to change the lives of us, and our nation.

    Instead of vowing to build something back better than before, we are arguing about having a waterfall and where names should be placed. Instead of showing that "anything that does not kill us, makes us stronger" we spend so much time licking our own wounds that we infect ourselves in the process.

    Time to stick the cone on our head and let our body heal up.

    Last edited by Ninjahedge; July 31st, 2006 at 11:58 AM.

  6. #1566

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge
    Turning the WTC into something like taht is a supreme materialistic, egotistic power joint relegating a sizable portion in a necrophilial homage to teh deat that touts the success of Islamic Radicalism and its power to change the lives of us, and our nation.
    I'm not even sure what this means...These emotional filled, incessant rants can be, at times, confusing...

  7. #1567

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greater NYC
    and for the case of many, including my family, this is the graveyard.
    When you describe the two parts of what the memorial is, you make no mention of cemetery
    As for the memorial itself, there are two parts, one being the remnants of the "Towers", and the visions we saw day in an day out. The crumbled facade that stood strong, drawing you closer to the site, and seen on TV every night. The steel cross found in tact, the "globe" sculpture, and a representation of the three fire fighters raising the American flag should all be visible above ground. The names of all those killed should also be portrayed above ground.

    The second part is the rebuilding and use of office and retail space (as planned.) We need to "stick it" to those who tried to destroy our economic heart, and our way of life. Rebuild larger and better.
    this was a PUBLIC event,
    The attempt to "take control of the memorial" by some memorial families and turn it into a cemetery has transformed a PUBLIC memorial to a PUBLIC event into a monument to private aggrandizement - complete with private entrances, private grieving rooms, and bizarre attempts to transfer minuscule particles of DNA mixed in a toxic soup to the site. No wonder fund-raising has been so anemic.

    And although I was persuaded by a Marine Corps recruiter to go to college in the mid-1990's, if there was a draft today, and I was chosen, I'd be ready and willing
    I understand the powerful symbolism that many attach to a dead body, but if you had been unlucky enough to experience combat, the significance of shreds of DNA would seem silly to you.

    "I am convinced that ground zero must first and foremost be a memorial. All other decisions should flow from that goal. If anything else is added to the site, it should complement and not overshadow the memorial. People a hundred years from now should be able to grasp the enormity of this attack by visiting this sacred ground. Ground zero is a cemetery. It is the last resting place for loved ones whose bodies were not recovered and whose remains are still within that hallowed ground. We must respect the role these events play in our history." -Rudy Guiliani
    Giuliani also stated that the site should be a 16 acre memorial, which conflicts with your second part of the memorial - to "stick it" to the terrorists by rebuilding office and retail.

    The memorial families not only seek to control the memorial, but extend their influence to the rest of the site. I noticed you didn't mention culture in your "stick it" plan. An oversight? Or on the same page with Debra Burlingame, who thinks only memorial sanctioned cultural development should be permitted?

    Giuliani is on that page; the only cultural events he seems to attend are Yankee games.

  8. #1568
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outerbanks Lookout
    I'm not even sure what this means...These emotional filled, incessant rants can be, at times, confusing...
    Let me break it down for you.

    Originally Posted by Ninjahedge:
    Turning the WTC into something like that is a supreme materialistic
    Why do we need a memorial that costs $1B? $500M is a bargain? That is all materialistic.

    egotistic power joint
    The people arguing for this are doing it for homage to their families, not to the event that happened to all of us.They are only relating it to what THEY feel is right for THEM. Also, who is the head female on this? She was not even directly related to this, yet she gets to try to yank everyone around? That is pure power.

    Ego trip!

    relegating a sizable portion in a necrophilial homage
    When you 'honor' the dead too much, you are worshiping them.

    to the feat that touts the success of Islamic Radicalism and its power to change the lives of us, and our nation
    Osama took 40 or so guys, put them on a plane (several planes) and ran them into the side of a building. That act alone has left a hole in our central business district for 5 years now.

    40 guys cost BILLIONS of dollars worth of damage, and in their wake, has left us arguing about what homage to pay for the act that was committed.

    You build a memorial there, you are also commemorating the act itself. Leaving wreckage there would only testify to their success, and forever remind other radicals that 40 men can shape the lives of millions for years to come.

    You just gave these martyrs immortality. (Sans the virgins, of course).

  9. #1569

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    Wow, didn't realize there were so many people who think that family members, and New Yorkers in general, shouldn't have a portion of the site, a substantial portion in my view, to be dedicated to the people who died there.

    I noted that I personally believe that the memorial stands two fold, both the rebuilding, and the "cemetary". People complaining of the waterfall, with the names of the killed; is this a nuiscance to those who gripe about the memorial? Why does memorializing the dead, at the same time rebuilding for the future, disgust so many here? What is the issue?

    Often new office construction in this city has some sort of city mandated "open space" (many times to gain more FAR, or other concessions.) So what is the argument about having a memorial park, with a waterfall, or whatever structure. People may disagree on what should be placed there, but never thought that there were so many that believe there should be nothing there. Is it wrong to dedicate the site to the events of that day, and of the attack in 1993? I believe the cultural part that Zippy is referencing, is the so called cultural center that was called out for what it was? A center devoted to events having nothing to do directly with the attacks? Why not raise an exhibit in Gettysburg devoted to the sacrifice made by so many heading west in the 1849 gold rush? Because what happened there in 1863 has nothing to do with western expansion in 1849. The cultural center would have had the same effect.

    You're right, I am fortunate to never have experienced combat, but was unfortunate to see body parts pulled from the site, and to know the tales of picking pieces, and sometimes whole charred bodies from "the pile." I have not been immune to the destruction, and many who have seen these horrible sights, as in combat, feel as I do. When you only have a loved one's DNA as remains it matters. And I'm sure the same goes for any family member of any military personell killed in action.

    Thank you all for your real feelings displayed. It has reminded me that there are so many out there that still don't get it. Too bad.... you won't hear from me again on this thread.

    God Bless America

  10. #1570
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greater NYC
    Wow, didn't realize there were so many people who think that family members, and New Yorkers in general, shouldn't have a portion of the site, a substantial portion in my view, to be dedicated to the people who died there.
    The problem occurs when you see too much of it. Over-memorializing is a sign that people have not healed. That they refuse to let go of the past.

    My grandfather died about 4 years back. I loved him, and everyone always remarked on how I reminded them of him.

    I keep one little placard card from the funeral in my car. I don't like what is on it (too ceremonial), but it is enough to remind me of him.

    I do not have an altar at home, or a shrine with a candle lit every day for him.

    Memorial is to remind you, not to deify your memory.

    I noted that I personally believe that the memorial stands two fold, both the rebuilding, and the "cemetery". People complaining of the waterfall, with the names of the killed; is this a nuisance to those who gripe about the memorial? Why does memorializing the dead, at the same time rebuilding for the future, disgust so many here? What is the issue?
    It is the scale. Since when do you need 6 ACRES of land to memorialize a group of people? Even the memorials for WARS have been more powerful and definitely not overstated. The Arizona is one, and the VW memorial. Tomb of the unknown soldier, and all the rest. Sometimes a simple, classic statement works much better than waterfalls, private rooms, museums, ramp-ways, and memorializing of things that have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EVENT (slurry wall tiebacks) are the main issue that people need to come to terms with.

    Often new office construction in this city has some sort of city mandated "open space" (many times to gain more FAR, or other concessions.)
    Irrelevant argument.

    So what is the argument about having a memorial park, with a waterfall, or whatever structure.
    Re-read what most people have been saying. They do not mind park space, just so it is not turned into a moratorium. People should be allowed to live, even in the presence and memory of the dead, or we become stuck in a dead end.

    The waterfalls were not just little things, they were HUGE EXPENSIVE constructions that would be a beast to upkeep that would essentially remove a great deal of space from ANY public use.

    I think the best example of a fountain/pool is one where the people can sit around it, and in some cases, USE it (Washington Square). Not one that you can come and look at it.

    People may disagree on what should be placed there, but never thought that there were so many that believe there should be nothing there.
    Wrong again. Man, you really do not read, do you. This is not an on-off argument. Please go back and read the entire thread and see what people have been talking about before you start putting your own face on the posts people have written here.

    Is it wrong to dedicate the site to the events of that day, and of the attack in 1993?
    Yes. It is a tragedy. If you rebuild, you rarely dedicate it to a bad event.

    I believe the cultural part that Zippy is referencing, is the so called cultural center that was called out for what it was? A center devoted to events having nothing to do directly with the attacks? Why not raise an exhibit in Gettysburg devoted to the sacrifice made by so many heading west in the 1849 gold rush? Because what happened there in 1863 has nothing to do with western expansion in 1849. The cultural center would have had the same effect.
    I think that they are just trying to combine too many things into the same argument. A cultural center would be good, but not one that is built in the name of 9-11.

    You're right, I am fortunate to never have experienced combat, but was unfortunate to see body parts pulled from the site, and to know the tales of picking pieces, and sometimes whole charred bodies from "the pile." I have not been immune to the destruction, and many who have seen these horrible sights, as in combat, feel as I do. When you only have a loved one's DNA as remains it matters. And I'm sure the same goes for any family member of any military personnel killed in action.
    If your loved ones DNA matters, then you need psychological help. You have a fixation and need to let go. They are DEAD. People that get hung up on that are usually trying to relieve their own emotions on something more tangible.

    They are stuck in Anger and Denial, and use that to yell at anyone that does not see it the way they do.

    We cannot stop the design and construction of this site for a few people who believe that the bone fragments of their loved ones are somehow sacred. Hell, the DUST of their relatives is sacred.

    That is too much and is a sign that something else is going on inside them that they need to deal with on their own.

    Thank you all for your real feelings displayed. It has reminded me that there are so many out there that still don't get it.
    I think you do not get it. We UNDERSTAND what these people are talking about, but we also see where they are coming from. You need to take a step back and recognize things in CONTEXT. When you stand too close to the WTC or its destruction, you never get a true idea of the actual size and scope of the things you are looking at.

    You needed to go to Brooklyn or NJ to get the true scope.

    Too bad.... you won't hear from me again on this thread.
    Is that supposed to make us feel guilty?

    "Poor me, I expressed my opinions here and you big meanies just do not get it. I am leaving and I hope you are happy!"

    Grow up.

    God Bless America
    Um, yeah. BTW, you forgot your flag, memorial magnetic ribbons, and bible.

  11. #1571

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    I'm not a big fan of people posting and bouncing...that's like dining and ditching, except less rewarding (without the plundering).

    My thing is, if you have something to say, that's fine, but if you're going to post it in a public forum, it would be wise for you to stick around and defend yourself; if not to save face, then at least to justify your argument.

  12. #1572

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    Not just bouncing.... there is no room for agreement on this topic between myself and others, so I see no reason to keep the bickering revolving. I've made my point to the degree I wish too.

    Ninja, I'm proud to keep my flag, my magnetic ribbons, and my Bible. I believe in the whole of this country, Ninja's beliefs regarding the memorial are in the minority, and I'm content knowing that fact.

  13. #1573
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greater NYC
    Not just bouncing.... there is no room for agreement on this topic between myself and others, so I see no reason to keep the bickering revolving. I've made my point to the degree I wish too.

    Ninja, I'm proud to keep my flag, my magnetic ribbons, and my Bible. I believe in the whole of this country, Ninja's beliefs regarding the memorial are in the minority, and I'm content knowing that fact.

    Again with nothing useful to say.

    BTW, when you use your flag, remember that you are supposed to take it down at night, and burn it when you retire it.

    When you have the magnetic ribbons, realize that you could have probably done more if you simply gave the dollar (or so) and did not ask for the ribbon. You may want to look in the bible you carry and realize that that is what Jesus told you to do (give for giving, not so that people know you gave).

    And you can also try reading your bible instead of thumping it.

    Minority my arse. If my feelings were in the minority they would have had no problem raising the money from caring inividuals who want the memorial done.

    So, aside from not volunteering for the marines, how much did you not donate to the memorial fund?

  14. #1574

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greater NYC
    you won't hear from me again on this thread.
    Tsk-tsk.

    Of course he returned, ostensibly to explain why he woulld no longer make a comment. But he did leave another comment, and we've gotten a reply.

    I wonder how long before he doesn't return to the thread again?

  15. #1575
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    I think we are dealing with impressionable youth here, who has had the misfortune of being impressed upon by people looking to suppress, oppress, and depress. My bet is that he'll be back.

    Strangely, and in opposition to Greater NYC's opinion, I think the building and design of the memorial is one area where there seems to be great consensus amongst forum contributors - even if we argue about tangential issues and political theory.

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