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Thread: WTC Memorial - by Michael Arad (Architect) and Peter Walker (Landscape)

  1. #211
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    TRADE CENTER TALKS REJECTED

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/16/nyregion/16mbrfs.html


    Fifteen groups of relatives of 9/11 victims, allied as the Take Back the Memorial movement, said yesterday that they would not meet with Peter H. Woodin, a professional mediator who was named last week to help break the political impasse at ground zero. The groups have charged that the International Freedom Center planned for the cultural building on the memorial quadrant would detract from the memorial. In a statement, they said that the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation and Gov. George E. Pataki had created "yet another deaf and redundant 'process' from which they are removed" and were "wasting time and resources that could be better spent addressing other compelling problems." The corporation said it was disappointed that Take Back the Memorial representatives were not "willing to engage in meaningful discussions."

    David W. Dunlap (NYT)

  2. #212

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    Well, that's one less building to hide vent stacks in.

    Is this article accurate?

    http://www.villagevoice.com

    9-11 Conspiracists Invade Ground Zero

    The alt.truth crowd takes its message to the memorial service, ‘The New York Times’, and a great big punk concert

    by Sarah Ferguson
    September 12th, 2005 11:05 AM



    Preaching to the uncoverted at Ground Zero.
    photo: Sarah Ferguson

    The anguish was palpable at Ground Zero yesterday, as family members made their way down a long ramp into the vast emptiness of the World Trade Center site, then took turns reading out the names of their lost loved ones.

    "We love you, Georgie. We'll see you soon," pledged the parents of a fallen firefighter, their sad voices broadcast to the crowds of grieving onlookers milling quietly around the perimeter.

    Into this somber setting marched about a dozen 9-11 conspiracists, who claimed a patch of sidewalk to preach what they called the truth. "These people weren't killed by Arab terrorists. You've been lied to!" shouted a woman who looked vaguely like Joey Ramone, holding up one end of a banner that read, "9-11 World Trade Center: Controlled Demolition."

    Her name was Lisa Giuliani and she broadcasts her theories though a Pennsylvania grassroots video collective called Wing TV.

    She lectured about how only a series of controlled explosions could have so rapidly pancaked the twin towers. "There's no way jet fuel could have melted all that steel. It was a freefall. The concrete was so thoroughly pulverized, Manhattan was blanketed in dust. Think about it," she urged. "Do your homework, please!"

    Her message played about as badly as could be expected. "I was there, so shut the **** up. You don't know what you're talking about," snapped an enraged firefighter in fatigues, stalking off into the crowd.

    "You shouldn't be here. Have some respect," another firefighter shouted.

    "It's a crime scene," Lisa Giuliani shot back. "We honor them with the truth. Al Qaeda is a concept. This is state-sponsored terrorism."

    The clamor was all too much for a passing tourist. "God bless America, you bitch!" he screamed in a thick accent.

    "Go back to where you came from, you foreigner," groused a fellow conspiracist.

    "But I am French," the tourist responded indignantly.

    And so it went, a sad comedy of slurs that went on for most of the morning, drawing crowds of puzzled onlookers before the police would shoo them away to clear the sidewalk.

    At one point, an auxiliary fireman stepped forward and tried to reason with the protesters to "respect the memorial sentiment."

    "Believe me, I have questions too," he told the protesters. "But you've got to respect the dead. These people are not ready for this. You're just creating resentment."

    The demolition lady was adamant. "There is no good time. I lost a lot of firefighter friends too," she maintained, adding, "This is the only way we can reach the 9-11 families."


    Victor Ortiz mourns the loss of his mom with wife Amanda
    photo: Sarah Ferguson

    It seemed most family members did their best to ignore the speakout. "That's what this country is about, that people can say what they want even if I don't agree with it," said Rudy Dimmling of Westbury, Long Island, whose brother William died in the North Tower, leaving behind a wife and two kids. "To have more fingerpointing and Congressional hearings, where does that get us? I can't live with myself to think that that was a conspiracy," he said, clearly pained at the thought of even having to address such a question.

    One might have thought the Bush administration's bungled response to the Katrina catastrophe could put a crimp in conspiracists' efforts to prove that the 9-11 was much more than just a colossal "failure of the imagination," as the 9-11 commission claimed. After seeing firsthand how President Bush and FEMA ignored years of warnings about the threat of a hurricane on the Gulf Coast, then dawdled while people drowned, maybe it's not so hard to fathom how our vacationing president could have blown off repeated intelligence warnings about the growing threat of al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden in the summer of 2001.

    Yet it seems Katrina is now just more fuel for the conspiracy pyre, with the Internet buzzing with theories of how the feds blew up the levees to flood poor areas of New Orleans and preserve the ritzy French Quarter.

    Down at Ground Zero, the 9-11 "truth" warriors were clearly emboldened by the hurricane fiasco. "The public saw people dying while Condi was shopping for shoes, Dick Cheney was playing fake cowboy, and Bush was backstage playing guitar," relished Ben Maurier of Brooklyn, who predicted a wash of new converts to the cause. "If they knowingly allowed that many people to die in New Orleans, why should it be a stretch that the government did 9-11?"

    Had they gotten off their soap boxes, the conspiracists might have found more empathy among survivors like Kevin Lester, who worked on the 102nd floor of the North Tower, and who lost his brother and numerous coworkers there. "I sometimes wonder if there could have been a conspiracy," confessed Lester, who said he survived on 9-11 only because he popped downstairs to get his shoes shined just before the first plane hit. "Some of the arguments kind of make sense, like the slow response rate [to the hijacked planes], or how Bush reacted that day. I saw Fahrenheit 911. It makes you wonder.

    "But still, I just kind of deplore heavy-duty political rhetoric at a memorial. Why today? Why?" he demanded. "Right now I'm still dealing with survivor's guilt. How about giving us a hug rather than stamping in our face?"


    The 9-11 Truth squad protesting outside Rockefeller Plaza, home to NBC.
    photo: Sarah Ferguson

    Not all the 9-11 skeptics were so brazen. Distinguishing themselves from the proselytizers downtown, about 200 protesters gathered outside the offices of the New York Times shouting, "Tell the truth!" The protest was organized by members of NY911truth.org to condemn the failure of the mainstream press. They say the media failed to raise questions about the numerous unexplained anomalies of 9-11-like why it took NORAD so long to scramble planes when five war games were running that day, or why World Trade Center owner Ken Silverstein implied that that WTC building 7 was "pulled"—a reported comment which leads conspiracists to presume that the other towers could have been intentionally taken down, too.

    "Why isn't the media asking these questions?" demanded retired Lieutenant Colonel Robert Bowman, who has become one of the celebrity skeptics because of his credentials as a former interceptor pilot who helped direct the Star Wars program under Carter and Ford. "Where are the tapes of the Pentagon hit? Where are the tapes of the conversations between NORAD and the air traffic controllers? Why are they hiding them? If our government had done nothing and just let normal procedures happen, those planes would have been intercepted and thousands of people would still be alive. It's treason," he insisted. "Bush and Cheney should be impeached."

    But the Grey Lady didn't even blink, with not so much as a reporter poking a head out of one of the windows.

    Many in the crowd seemed shocked that more New Yorkers had not joined them. They pointed to a Zogby poll taken last summer that showed half of all New Yorkers believe the U.S. leaders had "foreknowledge" of the attacks and "consciously" failed to act.

    But that word "consciously" is slippery, and could just as well refer to what people can now read in the media: that Bush, the NSA, CIA and FBI on down had information that a big attack on America was about to happen.

    Undaunted, the protesters marched through the canyons of Midtown, shoveling leaflets at bewildered shoppers as they chanted things like "Figure it out. It's not hard. Nine-11 was an inside job!" and even "Remember New Orleans!"—as if anyone could forget. They passed by the headquarters of FOX, NBC, Time Warner, and CNN, pausing to shout at the media for ignoring them as a few police officers looked on.


    Choking Victim inciting the masses to "**** World Trade" on 9-11.
    photo: Sarah Ferguson

    Maybe the marchers should have tried Tompkins Square Park, which by Sunday afternoon was awash in about 2,000 sweaty teenagers moshing at a 9-11 protest concert headlined by punk bands Million Dead Cops and Choking Victim.

    According to organizers, it took a team of three lawyers to swing the permit past Parks Department officials, who reportedly didn't like the timing and theme of the concert, nor the fact that the lead singer of Choking Victim is also the singer of Leftover Crack, whose last concert sparked a melee between police and bottle-throwing punks last November.

    But this time, the police seemed virtually nonexistent as Choking Victims' myriad fans sang along to lyrics like "Kill the cops," "**** America," and "**** world trade."

    Onstage, lead singer "Stza Crack" preached more conspiracies. "George Bush's brother Marvin Bush was head of security at the World Trade Center up until 9-11, and they were doing nefarious things," Crack told his drunken fans. "They wanted another Pearl Harbor to install the Patriot Act and take us to war. Don't listen to the media; the media is there for maximum security—to tell you lies!"

    As the band broke into their hit anthem of alienation, "Born to Die," a young punk in bleached hair and mod sunglasses dashed to the mike and shouted: "Kill George Bush! Or we're all going to die!"

    Unlike at Ground Zero, the folks here seemed not to mind such giddy provocation. Josh Copeland, a 21-year-old Rutgers student sporting a heavy chain and padlock around his neck, said he didn't buy the conspiracy angles voiced onstage but supported more dissent about the "social and economic" causes of 9-11. "This is really for the sake of acting out. You see there's a huge turnout for this. People are really very angry and they don't know what to do. Protest is losing its power." "Yeah," said one of his beer-addled female companions. "The only thing left is drinking, drugs, and suicide."



    Maybe the site should be renamed Circus Maximus.

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by From Article
    ..."But still, I just kind of deplore heavy-duty political rhetoric at a memorial. Why today? Why?" he demanded. "Right now I'm still dealing with survivor's guilt. How about giving us a hug rather than stamping in our face?"... [/i]
    Right. Once again we hear the claims to a singular event that apparently no one else in the nation experienced. Perhaps we're not giving him a "hug" because it isn't all about "him" and the innocent victims.

    It seems to break down the same way as evolution and intelligent design, either you have a curiosity about the opposing arguments or you don't. But, its a sure bet that taking any statement from this federal administration as fact, is dangerous for it flies in the face of overwhelming evidence - on some issues.

  4. #214
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    Matters of How Many and How Much
    at the Sept. 11 Memorial

    By DAVID W. DUNLAP
    September 22, 2005

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/22/ny.../22blocks.html


    IF you build it, and they come, will you have room enough?

    The issue of crowd capacity at the World Trade Center memorial is not nearly as intriguing as the current melodrama over the tenancy of the cultural building on the site. Yet capacity has a lot more to do with how visitors will experience the memorial.

    What makes this a tough issue is that concrete decisions must be based on widely diverging projections. Like chickens and eggs, capacity and demand have a circular relationship. The number of visitors cannot be reliably estimated until the memorial has been fully designed. But the memorial cannot be fully designed without a reliable estimate. And demand itself will be ever changing.

    It would be fiscally imprudent and logistically daunting, given the competing claims for space on the trade center site, to build a memorial and memorial museum that could comfortably accommodate the biggest imaginable peak crowd on opening day. The resulting physical plant would be vastly overscaled for long-term use.

    "We believe that certainly in the stabilized years, after the initial spike, that the memorial and the memorial museum will be able to accommodate the stabilized-year demand," Anne Papageorge, a senior vice president of the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation, told a recent forum of victims' relatives, survivors and rescue workers, organized by Voices of September 11th, a family advocacy group.

    What is that demand?

    A 2002 study for the development corporation and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey forecast attendance at "about 5.5 million annually in a stabilized year," within a range running from three million to eight million visitors.

    A 2003 memorandum to the authority from Economics Research Associates said 5.5 million "could be considered a safe level of projection" for a stabilized year, after seven million to nine million visitors in the first two or three years of operation.

    The 2004 environmental impact statement prepared by the development corporation accounted for "a first-year surge in attendance of up to nine million visitors," stabilizing at "approximately 5.5 million visitors per year."

    Currently, using figures from Economic Consulting Services, the corporation is projecting a peak demand of up to 6.6 million visitors annually in the first three years of operation, 2009 to 2011, and declining to four million by 2018. (By comparison, the Statue of Liberty received 3,618,053 visits last year.)

    "All of these projections are preliminary," said Stefan Pryor, president of the corporation, noting that the environmental impact figures were deliberately set high to permit the evaluation of conditions beyond what could reasonably be predicted.

    Among the factors that have yet to be studied in detail, he said, were hours of operation, ticketing policies, season of the year and time of day. "We will work with those variables to ensure that we maximize capacity," Mr. Pryor said, including during the peak years.

    Contemplating the difference between forecasts, Monica Iken, the founder of the September's Mission foundation, said, "Where did those three million people go?"

    Ms. Iken, whose husband was killed on Sept. 11, 2001, asked Ms. Papageorge at the forum, "We wouldn't have, like, a turn-away policy or anything like that?"

    Ms. Papageorge answered, "We're planning on implementing timed ticketing in the early years so that people will be able to know in advance when their time-ticket slot is."

    As for the relatives of 9/11 victims, Mr. Pryor added yesterday, "No matter what the attendance level is on any given day, family members will not be turned away."

    SOME speakers at the forum criticized the decision to reduce the number of ramps in the memorial.

    In the original plan by Michael Arad, there were to have been four L-shaped ramps, two for entry, two for exiting, around both pool-filled voids on the twin tower footprints, reaching street level at the far corners of the memorial plaza.

    Now, there are to be two switchback ramps that reach street level in the center of the plaza. Entry will be through the north ramp, exiting through the south ramp.

    Ms. Papageorge said Management Resources, consultants in the design process, "actually suggested that we have a single entry/exit for orientation purposes because they felt that people would be confused if there were multiple entrances and multiple exits."

    But Mary Fetchet, the founder of Voices of September 11th, told the architects who were at the forum that the memorial should have "as many entrances and exits as possible" and said she was worried about "traffic jams" in the new configuration.

    So is Ms. Iken, a board member of the World Trade Center Memorial Foundation. "Going anywhere at ground zero under the current plans - to the memorial, to the offices or to retail areas - is going to feel like standing in Times Square on New Year's Eve," she said.

    And the estimates of those crowds can vary by the millions.



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    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    First of all, I only read a few paragraphs in the "conspiracy" article before I got sick and had to stop.

    I am glad I was not there when this woman spouted all she "knew" about engineering and demolition. Jet fuel did not "melt" the steel, it just softened an already heavily damaged structure. And Structures 101 student knows about P-Delta (that when you get a bending of a column perpendicular to the load it is supporting) that it generates a moment and an uneven force distribution along the columns area. Given this, and the fact that deflection is directly related to material stiffness, which was lessened as the steel was heated by the fire, it is easy to see how thi shappened.

    All you have to do is watch the tape carefully.


    Also, just like a spring. If a column that was supporting 20 stories above it suddenly buckles, where does all the energy go? You think it just magically dissapears? It is not so crazy to assume that the "puffs" that these people saw at teh base were nothing more than the columns expanding after a good 100,000 pounds (actually it was probably much more than that) of axial force was suddenly removed from it.





    Now, as for the memorial. WTH are these peoples problems? What is all this talk about projected visitors to the thing? Itthis a memorial or an amusement park? They should not be concerned with turning the memorial into an announcement as to what happened, or an attraction to see in the city. It should be just what the name defines, a MEMORIAL to the people that dies that day and NOTHING MORE.

    This is no time to worship the dead, or turn their deaths into a tourist attraction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjahedge
    ... It this a memorial or an amusement park? They should not be concerned with turning the memorial into an announcement as to what happened, or an attraction to see in the city. It should be just what the name defines, a MEMORIAL to the people that dies that day and NOTHING MORE.

    This is no time to worship the dead, or turn their deaths into a tourist attraction.
    EXACTLY.

  7. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrooklynRider
    EXACTLY.
    I second that.

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  9. #219

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    Yes, I agree with the quoted passage, but the quote left out the main point by Ninjahedge, as it relates to the article:
    What is all this talk about projected visitors to the thing?
    No matter what the theme of the memorial will be, ignoring projected visitors (for any facility) would be a serious mistake in planning.

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    Considering where they'll all be coming from, if we build a high capacity Denny's offering breakfast specials on one side of the memorial and an equally high capacity Applebee's offfering lunch specials on the other, we can move two or three thousand an hour through there and be done by 3:00PM every day. Move the gift shop to Times Square and you can be cleaned up and locked up by 4:00PM.

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    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    IF you build it, and they come, will you have room enough?

    The issue of crowd capacity at the World Trade Center memorial...
    What is that demand?

    A 2002 study for the development corporation and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey forecast attendance at "about 5.5 million annually in a stabilized year," within a range running from three million to eight million visitors.
    5.5 M = ~ 15,070 / day
    3.5 M = ~ 8,220 / day
    8.0 M = ~ 21,917 / day

    A 2003 memorandum to the authority from Economics Research Associates said 5.5 million "could be considered a safe level of projection" for a stabilized year, after seven million to nine million visitors in the first two or three years of operation.
    7.0 M = ~ 19,178 / day
    9.0 M = ~ 24,657 / day

    The 2004 environmental impact statement prepared by the development corporation accounted for "a first-year surge in attendance of up to nine million visitors," stabilizing at "approximately 5.5 million visitors per year."
    9.0 M = ~ 24,657 / day
    5.5 M = ~ 15,070 / day

    Currently, using figures from Economic Consulting Services, the corporation is projecting a peak demand of up to 6.6 million visitors annually in the first three years of operation, 2009 to 2011, and declining to four million by 2018.
    6.6 M = ~ 18,082 / day
    4.0 M = ~ 10,960 / day

  12. #222
    Chief Antagonist Ninjahedge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp
    Yes, I agree with the quoted passage, but the quote left out the main point by Ninjahedge, as it relates to the article:
    No matter what the theme of the memorial will be, ignoring projected visitors (for any facility) would be a serious mistake in planning.
    Zip, I know what you are talking about, but I am not looking forward to a design that will "accomodate" these people.

    If lines form to see it, so be it. It will be just another sad commentary on the mindset of the people. I really do not want a place that will have the corrals (sp) set up before the people even get there.

    The only solution I see that makes sense it to just make sure that whatever SMALL piece they put in there has enough room for people to come and go. NOT building a shrine that can accomodate 8 million people in a year in, by, and for itself alone.

  13. #223
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    Blurred Line for the Ground Zero Museum

    By DAVID W. DUNLAP
    September 23, 2005

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/23/ny...23rebuild.html


    The International Freedom Center, the embryonic museum that was chosen last year to occupy the cultural building planned at ground zero, released a detailed report yesterday intended to buttress its claim to the site against growing criticism.

    But the report, which was submitted to the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation, did little to close a fundamental fault line in the greater debate over the World Trade Center redevelopment: whether there is room for anything not directly related to 9/11 on the 6.5-acre memorial quadrant where the twin towers stood.

    While the report describes how the stories of victims, survivors and heroes of Sept. 11, 2001, would be presented in the galleries and theaters of the Freedom Center, it also makes clear that the museum would concern itself more broadly with worldwide struggles for justice, equality and tolerance and with controversial contemporary topics.

    And that did not assuage critics, who now include the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association and Representatives Vito J. Fossella, Peter T. King and John E. Sweeney, Republicans of New York. If anything, Mr. King said: "I think it makes a bad situation worse. I really do."

    Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg was the most prominent figure yesterday to speak in support of the idea that ground zero could play multiple roles, though he said he had not yet read the report and added, "There probably should be different rules for what takes place there."

    "We have a number of things to do on this site," the mayor said. "One is to remember those that we lost. One is to remind the world that our freedoms are always at jeopardy, sadly, and that a terrible price was paid for our freedoms here. We don't want to forget that."

    The Freedom Center and the Drawing Center in SoHo were picked in 2004 by the development corporation as the prospective tenants of a cultural building at the trade center site. The Norwegian architectural firm Snohetta was chosen to design it.

    This summer the project came under criticism from relatives of 9/11 victims, the Uniformed Firefighters Association, The New York Post, The Daily News and others, who said they feared that the institutions would bring unwelcome politics and offensive artwork to the site - possibly anti-American - that would distract from the solemnity of the memorial.

    In June Gov. George E. Pataki ordered the development corporation to obtain an "absolute guarantee" from the institutions that the site "never be used in a way that is going to denigrate America, denigrate our heroes, denigrate the sacrifices of Sept. 11."

    Without responding directly, the Drawing Center began looking for alternative space downtown, with $150,000 in financial assistance from the development corporation.

    Last month the corporation's chairman, John C. Whitehead, gave the Freedom Center until today to detail its programs and governance, which would be presented to the public for further review. He said that if at the end of this process, the corporation was "not satisfied with the I.F.C.'s proposal, we will find another use or tenant."

    The report issued yesterday was the Freedom Center's answer. It can be read on the Web sites of the corporation (renewnyc.com) or the Freedom Center (ifcwtc.org).

    To support its assertion that "an important trend in America and abroad is to link events that are being memorialized with broader educational institutions," the Freedom Center offered several testimonial letters, including one from Robert C. Wilburn, the president of the Gettysburg National Battlefield Museum Foundation.

    Mr. Wilburn said there were two interpretive approaches possible at the trade center site: one that focused only on the events of 9/11 or one that could "be used to help us better understand the meaning of what happened on this tragic day and to encourage future generations to learn from this experience.

    "I strongly endorse your efforts to significantly enhance the learning that occurs at this site. We have chosen this approach for Gettysburg."

    But critics said that 9/11 could speak for itself. Edie Lutnick, the executive director of the Cantor Fitzgerald Relief Fund, envisioned a visitor, unable to get into the memorial and underground memorial museum, winding up in the Freedom Center's "World and Sept. 11" gallery, which will depict reactions from various countries.

    "If you're turned away and you don't go below, you don't ever get the story," she said. "You only get - what? - Canada's reaction to 9/11."

    Mr. King, of Nassau County, said about Sept. 11: "I don't think it has to be amplified. It doesn't have to be put into greater context."

    And Mr. Fossella, who represents Staten Island and parts of Brooklyn, said, "I don't want to be in a position to censor anything at that site, but I have a very strong sense that ground zero is sacred ground that should be limited to 9/11 events."

    He said he supported hearings planned by Mr. Sweeney, the vice chairman of an appropriations subcommittee, into whether any federal financing had been used in the development of the Freedom Center.

    At least one New Yorker - Chris Burke, the president and founder of the Tuesday's Children family services group - said he would wait for the public process to play out before venturing an opinion. His brother, Tom, was a partner at Cantor Fitzgerald.

    Though he is a member of the Freedom Center's family advisory group, Mr. Burke said: "I'm not coming out in favor of the center. I'm not coming out against it. I'm in favor of reason."

    After reading the report, he said the Freedom Center portrayed by opponents as a partisan, political, rationalizing, blame-America institution "clearly, to any reasonable man or woman, doesn't exist in these pages."

    Mr. Burke added: "I hope that dialogue can rule the day here. I hope that the intelligent opinions that do get formed will allow the chips to fall where they may. I lost a band of brothers. I'm close to it. But I don't think we're ever too close or too far removed from anything not to let reason rule the day."



  14. #224
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    This is the kind of clear-thinking person who neeeds to be heard from:

    Quote Originally Posted by lofter1
    At least one New Yorker - Chris Burke, the president and founder of the Tuesday's Children family services group - said he would wait for the public process to play out before venturing an opinion. His brother, Tom, was a partner at Cantor Fitzgerald.

    Though he is a member of the Freedom Center's family advisory group, Mr. Burke said: "I'm not coming out in favor of the center. I'm not coming out against it. I'm in favor of reason."

    After reading the report, he said the Freedom Center portrayed by opponents as a partisan, political, rationalizing, blame-America institution "clearly, to any reasonable man or woman, doesn't exist in these pages."

    Mr. Burke added: "I hope that dialogue can rule the day here. I hope that the intelligent opinions that do get formed will allow the chips to fall where they may. I lost a band of brothers. I'm close to it. But I don't think we're ever too close or too far removed from anything not to let reason rule the day."

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    And in adiition to the visitors, we have these weird new career mourners that have sprung out of this event. They are going to park themselves in the museum, hold court over exhibits, and loiter in the memorial, obstructing things as "divine right."

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