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Thread: Alex Rodriguez (The A-Rod thread)

  1. #151

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    You're missing the point.

    The evidence will not be released to the public until after:

    1. ARod is suspended

    2. ARod appeals the suspension.

    It's written into the collective bargaining agreement. That's why Braun, by accepting the suspension, was able to make vague statements about mistakes he had made in the past. We will never know what the evidence is.

    Don't be too sure that ARod wants the evidence made public. He's not Barry Bonds, who was comfortable wearing the suit of a pariah. He was always nasty, and didn't give a shit what anybody thought. ARod is a fragile personality, who still wants "to be a role model." Could you imagine Bonds saying that.

    Unions file grievances on the basis of violations of the CBA and labor practices, not rights under the Constitution.

  2. #152

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    Due process is not in the CBA?

  3. #153

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    Are you talking about THE Due Process Clause?

    Collective Bargaining Agreements conform to labor law, specifically the National Labor Relations Act. The mechanisms for discipline and grievances are spelled out in the agreement. Ryan Braun got due-process (small letters) within the parameters of the CBA. He was given a suspension. He had the choice of accepting or appealing the suspension. ARod will get the same due process.

    If MLB doesn't have anything, it won't get past an independent arbitration panel. A lifetime ban would probably get time knocked down in arbitration. Steve Howe was banned for life; he appealed and it was reduced to 120 games.

  4. #154

  5. #155

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    What a bozo.

  6. #156
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    I do believe that A-Rod just framed the issue as the persecution of a Dominican person

  7. #157

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    Is Arod risking a longer suspension by appealing? MLB has threatened to push for a lifetime ban, but that doesn't mean an arbitrator will agree. If the suspension stays at 211 games, that means he'll miss some of the 2015 season, including, I suppose, that spring training.

    The final ruling may knock some games off the suspended period depending on the evidence against. It will likely be the longest PED-related discipline regardless of if or when he is allowed to play again.

    This may be his final chance to play baseball at this level, so the appeal seems to be about that as much or more than the money left on his contract.

  8. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by hbcat View Post
    Is Arod risking a longer suspension by appealing?
    No. The suspension is in effect now. In typical CBAs, you are out of work until the arbitration ruling. In the MLB-MLBPA agreement, a player is working until the ruling.

    MLB has threatened to push for a lifetime ban, but that doesn't mean an arbitrator will agree.
    That is off the table and was never a reasonable course of action. A ban of that type is outside the Joint Drug Agreement, the suspension is immediate, and arbitration is heard by the commissioner. Assuming he wouldn't overturn himself, the recourse for the player would be the NLRB or a lawsuit. The union would definitely fight this as a circumvention of the grievance-appeal process, and it would open up the CBA in court.

    I don't think that MLB wants this now, since the union membership has moved toward stiffer penalties, a marked change from the past when the primary concern was invasion of privacy.

    It was an attempt to get Rodriguez to accept the suspension, and avoid the present circus.

    If the suspension stays at 211 games, that means he'll miss some of the 2015 season, including, I suppose, that spring training.
    Whatever the final number is, the count will start when ARod goes off the payroll.

    The final ruling may knock some games off the suspended period depending on the evidence against.
    From the statements by union reps that I've read, the position seems to be that the number of games is excessive, not so much that the suspension itself is unwarranted.

    I don't know how ARod and his lawyers plan to argue this. It can be assumed that the evidence is credible, since all the other players have agreed to the suspension, and AROD's lawyers have attempted to negotiate a settlement. When asked pointedly at the press conference yesterday why he didn't deny the drug use, he smartly (or on instruction from his lawyer) avoided the question.

    I guess they might argue the credibility of the witnesses; however, if there is substantial material evidence, the "his word against mine" argument is no longer relevant.

    I heard an interesting and bizarre theory - they may argue that ARod didn't get quality medical care from the Yankee staff, and he had no recourse but to seek out alternative care. I can't see that having much traction, but who knows.

    The Yankees have also kept quiet about the pending appeal. Girardi said it is his job to manage a baseball team, not be a judge. The Yankees did fire back about the insinuation by ARod after a Trenton game that MLB and the Yankees were colluding to void his contract.

    That was a dumb thing for ARod to say.

  9. #159

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    I dug up this old article, written over 12 years ago. Seems like a lifetime.

    Sports of The Times; Jeter Lays Off His Pal's Bait, Saying Plenty

    By HARVEY ARATON
    Published: March 06, 2001

    IN one of life's delicious little ironies, Alex Rodriguez recently made the claim that Derek Jeter is a player who is ''never your concern,'' presenting Jeter with the opportunity to demonstrate why he most often is.

    The proof was more in what Jeter didn't say than what he did, in response to Rodriguez's petty comments in the April issue of Esquire magazine. Under pressure, Jeter was collected enough to diffuse a potential spitting contest between two of baseball's glamour players.

    ''I'll ask him tonight,'' Jeter said when reporters fed him Rodriguez's bait last Friday at the Yankees' training base in Tampa. ''I'll talk to him and let you know.'' In the context of budding controversy, this solid contact with the increasingly elusive concept of restraint was the equivalent of a two-out, ninth-inning hit with the tying run on second.

    The commentary that Jeter is a Yankee who ''never had to lead'' (and, by extrapolation, perhaps not worth the 10-year, $189 million deal ranking him second behind Rodriguez on baseball's salary charts) had to sting, if only because it was made by a peer Jeter perceived as a pal.

    Only they know how close their friendship has been, but it's worth recalling that Jeter, in one of the few attacks against his team-first character, was criticized for fraternizing with Rodriguez while the Yankees and Mariners rolled angrily around the infield two seasons ago in Seattle.

    Jeter has since gone on with the Yankees to win two more World Series, for a total of four in five years. Rodriguez, bounced with the Mariners from the 2000 postseason by his so-called buddy's team, accepted a record 10-year, $252 million deal from Texas this winter, ending speculation that he would land with the Mets.

    Rodriguez was roundly criticized here following the aborted Mets negotiations, but it was understandable why he went elsewhere, beyond that staggering sum of money. Jeter already has both feet in the New York history book and, more significantly, George Steinbrenner would have made sure that Rodriguez never competed on a level playing field.

    ''Jeter's been blessed with great talent around him,'' Rodriguez told Esquire. While that's indisputable, the entirety of his remarks make him sound painfully aware that no matter how much he makes, he can't buy karma. Jeter has obviously been fortunate to be part of the Yankees, but he has been essential to their success, a franchise pillar. In organizational terms, Jeter may have been born on third base, but he stole home and has put himself back in scoring position, time and again.

    Rodriguez. Gary Sheffield. John Rocker. You have to wonder about some athletes and periodical publications. Do they think they are being interviewed for historical archives that they won't be confronted with until age 75? No matter how much they cry context, the magazine quote may be a more honest window into their thinking, as the time between pontification and publication generally offers the opportunity to rethink and retract.

    Defensive people tend to lash out, which I was reminded of a few weeks ago at the National Basketball Association All-Star Game. Under siege about his league, David Stern was told at a news conference that Elvin Hayes, who coached in the game between rookies and second-year players, had called the league's young players immature. Had he withheld comment, Stern might have learned that Hayes had actually praised the players, saying that all they lacked was maturity. Stern, the most respected commissioner in team sports, instead chose to diss his league's own legend.

    Under verbal fire, Jeter, at 26, came across, especially in contrast to Rodriguez, as comfortable with his place, his contract and himself. It bodes well for the coming season and how Jeter will respond to his rich new deal.

    Might he falter in the face of expectation? Get a swelled head? The longtime Yankee Gene Michael tells of how he once asked Jeter if his congenial personality would change when the inevitable big money came. ''Aww, Stick,'' Jeter said, ''my dad would kill me.''

    Charles Jeter, a trained psychologist, once watched young Derek refuse to shake hands with the opposition after losing a Little League game. He told his son: ''Time to grab a tennis racket, since you don't know how to play a team sport.''

    Jeter has since learned a few things about sports and sociology. He graciously gave Alex Rodriguez the room to spin himself out of trouble. Their friendship has most likely taken a hit, but Jeter made his point. Count on him in a big spot, and always expect him to lead.

    Copyright 2013 The New York Times Company

  10. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZippyTheChimp View Post
    ending speculation that he would land with the Mets.
    Wonder what's happening in that alternate universe!

  11. #161

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    @ hbcat

    In addition to Zippy's observations, consider too that at 211 games, A-Rod would have been over 40 by the time his suspension would have ended. Given his decline in recent years, one could argue that at 40, he will no longer possess the skills necessary to be a viable major league player. In other words, 211 games may as well be 2111 games for A-Rod because he probably wouldn't have made it back anyway. Not only that, but his salary starts to decline after this season - admittedly not by much, but a bit in 2014 and a bit more in 2015. The incentive is for him to play now, while he is young enough to have some of the skills, and is collecting a higher check

    Conventional wisdoms seems to be that by appealing, he will likely play most if not all of the season out. If he gets anything near 150 games in 2014, (over 2 years of not playing at 40) I have to think he is done. At least now he gets to string it out a bit.
    Last edited by eddhead; August 6th, 2013 at 02:19 PM.

  12. #162

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    That's some article, and Rod did sound petty when he said Jeter was blessed with talent surrounding him. I always thought that Jeter loved the game before the rewards, while I thought Rod loved the rewards first. Not denying Rod's talent, but what limited observations I have of the Yankees, Jeter's has been more consistent.


    Btw love what his father said to him as a little leaguer. I'm sure his father's guidance shaped the kind of character he shows on the field as well as in front of the camera today.

  13. #163

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    You're right - that statement DID make Arod sound petty, and really served no purpose but ... well it was kind of true. Of course, he forgets that the Mariner teams of the late 90's were also stacked - Arod, Edgar, Buhner and Griffey were all at or near their prime at the time. I would agree that Arod was more important to the Mariners line-up than Jeter was to the Yankees back than, but I would not necessarily agree that he, alone was the primary player you didn't want beating you. Griffey was having pretty awesome seasons back than too hitting 158 HR's over a 3 year span, including back-to-back 56 HR seasons.

    I am not sure I agree with your observation on Arod loving the rewards more than the game itself however, and I kind of think people in general are beginning to are use his getting caught with PED's as a reason to trash every aspect of his character. Although not at all universally liked, I have yet to hear a teammate or oppossing player criticize his work ethic or zest for the game. Indeed, most people around baseball will attest to the fact that Arod is more of a fan and student of the game and more obsessed with its history than Jeter is. For instance I recall a story about Arod visiting Jeter at his home in Tampa and being absolutely amazed by the fact that Jeter did not subscribe to a MLB cable package. My own opinion is Ihis obession with the game,and his desire to please others and succeed did him in. Either way, Arod may be a lot of things, but his love and dedicaton to the game certainly is sincere. It would be wrong to extend his personaltiy shortcomings into areas that don't apply.

    Let's also not forget that it was Arod, not Jeter who agreed to change postions when he came to the Yankees, despite the fact that Arod was clearly the better defensive SS at the time. That was pretty unselfish. In stark contrast, Jeter outright refused to do so - something that really struck me at the time.

    I love Jeter as much as anyone, but a bit of balance is in order here.

    Your note on Jeter's father is interesting in light of Arod's own family situation. Arod's father left his family apparently with no warning when he was 9. Those close to him claim he never reconciled to that and that claim it effected him and the type of person he is today, profoundly.

    I think he is a tragic figure in a way, done in by his own intensity, his love and obsession for the game, and his compulsion to impress and be loved by others, possibly born out of the rejection of his father.
    Last edited by eddhead; August 6th, 2013 at 07:06 PM.

  14. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by eddhead View Post
    Of course, he forgets that the Mariner teams of the late 90's were also stacked - Arod, Edgar, Buhner and Griffey were all at or near their prime at the time. I would agree that Arod was more important to the Mariners line-up than Jeter was to the Yankees back than, but I would not necessarily agree that he, alone was the primary player you didn't want beating you. Griffey was having pretty awesome seasons back than too hitting 158 HR's over a 3 year span, including back-to-back 56 HR seasons.
    Looking forward from 1993, I probably would have agreed with this, but it is absolutely untrue with the wisdom of hindsight. As it turns out, Jeter was more important to the Yankees than Rodriguez was to the Mariners, Rangers, or Yankees.

    I don't know how much it is realized today how good ARod was while in high school. There wasn't as much media attention of high school prospects back then, but if you were a Yankee fan stuck with probably the worst three years in team history, a parade of shortstops including Alvaro Espinosa, Andy Stankiewicz, Spike Owen, and Mike Gallego - maybe you paid attention. The Yankees drafted Jeter in 1992, but except for savvy scouts, he was an unknown commodity. ARod was drafted by the Mariners in 1993. He was a can't miss phenom, and showed in in his first full season at 20 years old.

    He led the league in doubles with 54, total bases with 379, and BA with .358. He had 215 hits and 36 HR. A rifle arm. The best hitting infielder I've ever seen. Missed the MVP by three votes.

    Either way, Arod may be a lot of things, but his love and dedicaton to the game certainly is sincere. It would be wrong to extend his personaltiy shortcomings into areas that don't apply.
    I don't agree with that. None of us lead lives apart from our work. One always influences the other.

    One ARod flaw that may have gone unnoticed in 1993 was his signing bonus negotiation with the Mariners, while signing a letter of intent to play at the University of Miami. His agent at the time, and for years thereafter, was Scott Boras, who advised him to hold out for more. It's been written that Boras was a father figure to ARod, and if true, maybe the wrong personality to wield such influence.

    Whatever his knowledge and dedication to baseball, I'm not so sure that ARod really loves to play, not the way other successful players seem to. There was always a tenseness, an awkwardness about his demeanor that belied the fact that he was a Natural. Maybe ironically, it was the steroid use that affected his ability to perform in clutch situations, not the drug itself, but the lie. Having to live a lie must be stressful for anyone; doing it while in a fishbowl existence must be unbearable.

    The point at the moment is - what is this all for? What does ARod derive from whatever number of games he has left?

    It's really a tragedy, nothing to be happy about.

    I'm not giving him a pass of excuses. He did this to himself. We don't grow up on the same timer, but there comes a point when the bell rings, and we see ourselves as men and women, not boys and girls. Maybe it takes longer for celebrities, but if you're not there by your mid-30s, you're probably stuck in place.

  15. #165

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    I just remembered something about ARod's love of baseball: He opted out of his contract during the deciding game 4 of the 2007 World Series. After blabbing all season that he wanted to remain with the Yankees, he doesn't even meet with them before the announcement.

    Love of baseball? More like...


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