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Thread: Madison Square Garden - 4 Penn Plaza - by Charles Luckman Associates

  1. #166

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    ^Curved and glassy above the old Annex facade?

    How much of an addition above the Annex roofline would be needed to accomodate MSG?

  2. #167

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    Depends on how much seating they'll take away. Since they're shrinking the size of the street I imagine that need to make it taller just to fit the current seating.


    BTW, the single best thing about the Garden is the atmosphere, this is mostly due to the extremely low roof of the Arena which results in greater noise. During Ranger games you REALLY hear people chanting. Watch say a Devils game on TV and you won't hear anything, watch the Rangers and you hear "let's go rangers" all the time. You feel the presence of nearly 20,000 at MSG, that's what makes it great. Most arenas have tall roofs just like Continetal and the proposed Nets Arena which results in sub-par sound experience for games and concerts.

  3. #168
    Jersey Patriot JCMAN320's Avatar
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    A bit of nostalga in this 1968 advertisment showing architect's model of the final plan for the Madison Square Garden Center complex.


  4. #169

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    And to think, that's what replaced Penn Station...

  5. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by BPC
    do you know what would happen if you super-imposed say, Continental Arena or the Nassau Coliseum on to Farley?
    A lot depends on what else is inside. I measured out a few arenas, oval and rectangular. A good layout for comparison is the MCI Center in DC. It's an oval within a rectangle.

    The long axis is 470 ft. The length of the Post Office Annex to the proposed concourse is 370 ft. A diagonal across the Annex is 500 ft.

    I think it is going to be difficult to fit in an arena without losing the skylight feature of the concourse. We'll have to wait for a rendering, but what I imagine, I don't like.

  6. #171
    Disgruntled Optimist lofter1's Avatar
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    I walked around the perimeter of Farley yesterday and could see that the building appears to be emptying out. Specifically looking into the windows on the 33rd St. side the lower floor looks pretty empty (lots of broad expanses of cleared and cleaned floors). The sight through the windows above seem to indicate that those work spaces have been / are being cleared.

    Looking at the Farley in relation to MSG: it appears that the height of the existing MSG is just slightly taller than the top of the Farley Annex.

    Assuming, due to the somewhat conical shape of an arena, that the diameter of a new MSG at street level need not be as wide as the diameter of the new arena at the higher levels then it would seem that the new MSG could be constructed so that, in essence, the new structure is "dropped" down within the existing perimeter of Farley Annex. In that way the higher levels of the newer structure would rise above --and probably beyond -- the Annex facade.

    IMO a new MSG structure should contrast with the existing classical facade -- that's why I suggested glass / curves in a previous post (ala the Gehry Brooklyn arena), rather than some thing boxy.

    Also: When you look into the Farley Annex you can see that there are columns (both concrete and steel) spaced throughout -- so the demo required at the interior of this site will not be quick.

  7. #172

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    The width is not the problem. Of the oval arenas I looked at, the MCI was small. The ovals at Chicago and Charlotte are 550 ft long. I can't see an oval fitting within 370 ft unless the seating is very steep.

    This reality was already mentioned in a NYTimes article on Feb 15th:
    But executives familiar with the plan say that the glass arch would be eliminated to make room for the Garden, although a concourse for commuters remains part of the plan. They also said that the Garden would rise above the height of the Farley building.

  8. #173

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    The main glass roof over the center of the PO will definitely stay IMO. It is the far more important one of the 2. The glass over the mid-block pass through is likely to go. The pass through itself will likely stay as it would nestle under the seating which would rise diagonally above it. If we're lucky the could put a vertical glass wall that would let some light in the pass through.

  9. #174

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    Does anyone know if Vornado owns the site on the west side of 9th Avenue over the tracks? If so, is the plan to build a platform over the tracks? It seems that that would be expensive.


  10. #175

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    No, a different firm owns it. That adds to the problem.

  11. #176

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    The sites west of Ninth Avenue are owned by Brookfield Properties (southern portion) and Schulweis Realty (northern portion). Any development would first require construction of a deck over the railroad tracks. Before the Hudson Yards study, there was talk of constructing a NBA headquarters building on one of these parcels.

  12. #177

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    Quote Originally Posted by TranspoMan
    The sites west of Ninth Avenue are owned by Brookfield Properties (southern portion) and Schulweis Realty (northern portion). Any development would first require construction of a deck over the railroad tracks. Before the Hudson Yards study, there was talk of constructing a NBA headquarters building on one of these parcels.

    That's true. That railyard site now seems suited for two towers. The big, blocky building behind it (home to the Daily News, and other media outlets) has been rezoned so the owners can knock it down and build a much larger tower.

  13. #178

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    Thanks for the info, LeCom and Transpoman. It would have been nice to see a park there.

    Did Brookfield buy the parcel recently? It seems that building the platform would be prohibitively expensive and would require the city's participation.

  14. #179

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    Huh? There are a lot of buildings built over things. This space is in a relatively desirable location, I would imagine that for the right application it would be well worth it -- and much more likely to happen than the far west development (which would also require a platform over the MTA train yard).

    Quote Originally Posted by londonlawyer
    Thanks for the info, LeCom and Transpoman. It would have been nice to see a park there.

    Did Brookfield buy the parcel recently? It seems that building the platform would be prohibitively expensive and would require the city's participation.

  15. #180

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    401 West 31 Street
    New York, New York
    United States

    Located directly across from the Farley Post Office on Ninth Avenue, which is currently being redeveloped as the Moynihan Train Station, New York's most highly-trafficked commuter rail hub. Significant redevelopment is taking place in this neighborhood, including the expansion of the Jacob Javits Convention Center.
    http://www.brookfieldproperties.com/development.htm
    Square Footage: 2,500,000

    Contact Information:
    Lawrence F. Graham (212) 417-7065
    lgraham@brookfieldproperties.com

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